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DeMOSic
Registered: Aug 2021
Posts: 126 |
Release id #211073 : GT Protect (Goat Tracker .SID Protector)
<Post edited by moderator on 5/11-2021 17:53>
[Moved from comments] to the forums:
Quote:
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Submitted by spider-j [PM] on 5 November 2021
This is just silly.
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Submitted by Jammer [PM] on 5 November 2021
"fuck no :D"
LAMER! :D
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Submitted by iAN CooG [PM] on 5 November 2021
> Even ripping should be kind of effort.
fuck no :D
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Submitted by Jammer [PM] on 5 November 2021
@2bt: it's absolutely not about fear of losing trade secrets - if anybody is that desperate, one will always find a way ;) It's about people taking what they want/need/desire the lazy way via shortcut because they feel entitled to. Even ripping should be kind of effort. And real demoscene was always about genuine effort, wasn't it? ;)
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Submitted by Jason Page [PM] on 5 November 2021
I didn't think the protector would cause such a stir either! I wrote a sid>sng and sid>cheesecutter tool a few years ago. Your code is much cleaner than mine! :-) Also, CC is far easier to rip.
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Submitted by 2bt [PM] on 5 November 2021
I didn't think sid2sng would cause such a stir. Protect your sid if you feel that you must. :)
I never knew people would fear that their instruments get revealed. You can just look at the dump or use SID Monitor to get a pretty good idea how a particular sound is achieved. There is no protection against that (and why would you want it anyways?).
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Submitted by That8BitChiptuneGuy [PM] on 5 November 2021
@Mibri i guess your right. Moved to forums. Release id #211073 : GT Protect (Goat Tracker .SID Protector)
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Submitted by Groepaz [PM] on 5 November 2021
lovely reactions here :)
If you cant derive the sounds using siddump you dont deserve using them anyway :=) So thumbs up :=)
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Submitted by Joe [PM] on 5 November 2021
Just remember dear C64 cock stuffed people. There is just 1 more gen. Then you have your stardust blown away to nobody listening!
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Submitted by That8BitChiptuneGuy [PM] on 5 November 2021
well i guess i do understand this abit more now. Was just abit fed up.
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Submitted by Mibri [PM] on 5 November 2021
No one wants to discourage or alienate new composers. As has been stated here at least twice already, experienced composers are generally happy to share their knowledge, even their workfiles, so that's not the issue. Swapping stuff between friends is a vital part of the scene's roots, but you have to have some contact with (and respect from) who you're taking from - that's just showing a bit of class.
Back on the 'learning' thing: the way to learn is to do a lot of listening while developing a personal style by doing your own messing around in your chosen tools, and the process never ends. I'm quite sure that's how everyone does it.
Is it time to shunt this discussion to the Forums yet?
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Submitted by That8BitChiptuneGuy [PM] on 5 November 2021
@TheRyk he has used goattracker tho only for 2 tunes
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Submitted by Joe [PM] on 5 November 2021
Why do I even greet half of you in the few demos I make?
So an artist means, even in 2021 can't be a hidden gem/technique etc.
Maybe the new rule would be to show even code and music at demo-parties is open-sources,
just as my artwork in 5 workstages, in this so hegemonic homogenic scene is.
For-whatever it's worth it's not more than 1 generation more before it's lost in dust.
Use your time, know your friends and get on with it!
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Submitted by That8BitChiptuneGuy [PM] on 5 November 2021
@Joe haha why should i :) As a kinda new sid musician who has just now started to actually take sid music seriously i think that checking out other musicians sid files to learn is kind of a thing to do and things like these are the ones to kind of make beginner/intermediate c64 musicians kind of half pissed
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Submitted by Jason Page [PM] on 5 November 2021
Hey.
Please read this in the manner it was meant: I have utmost respect for anyone who gives a crap about C64 / SID.
I just feel people should be given a choice. If people are happy to share, they won't try to protect the files. So what's the problem? There are already 10000's of GT tunes to learn from and it's likely that most in the future will also not be protected if that's what the composer wishes.
I'm also all for learning. Do a search on YouTube for the 1:30 hour video I created on how I use SIDTracker. The fact that I also gave the whole Turrican SID away with that tool too.
But that was *my* choice.
That's all I've got to say.
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Submitted by Joe [PM] on 5 November 2021
Be civil!
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Submitted by Jammer [PM] on 5 November 2021
I'm more than happy to share my sng but.. well... good luck with using any of my fucked up instruments as they usually also require appropriate interaction between channels :D
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Submitted by That8BitChiptuneGuy [PM] on 5 November 2021
@Jammer Didnt think it was that exact But Okay
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Submitted by Jammer [PM] on 5 November 2021
@That8BitChiptuneGuy: what Mibri exactly said ;)
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Submitted by That8BitChiptuneGuy [PM] on 5 November 2021
Rated it a 1 because there are people who want to learn goattracker who want to learn by checking their favourite sid musicians sng files.
Say someone like me who want to get to the levels of musicians like iunno. Jammer, LMan, Fanta, etc etc. Probably wants to learn goattracker by checking out how they do it. Also to those who are thinking but theyll steal my instruments they probably wont. And even if they do maybe a fresh tune will maybe come out eh? And this isnt needed since you can convert to a swm (sid wizard module file) and then export to sid from that. I refuse to steal instruments (unless its something like futurecomposer style instruments).
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Submitted by Mibri [PM] on 5 November 2021
Most experienced musicians are very happy to talk shop and share their knowledge - hell, they'll even share their SNG files with people they have a rapport with. Sharing is cool. But if you think that saving 'instrument' presets from converted files or whatever is going to help your music, well, it doesn't really work like that. Composers need to use their ears and do their own experiments. Otherwise, what's the point? This is not elitism; I only insist on a bit of craft and honesty.
So, nice one Jason. :D
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Submitted by iAN CooG [PM] on 5 November 2021
damn timeout for editing comments!11!11
The sid that can't be protected without altering its output I tested is The Required Fields
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Submitted by TheRyk [PM] on 5 November 2021
yup 2021, times of open source, and we're dealing with C64 music file instrument protection software...
maybe 2bt or spider will "crack" that silly thing :D
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Submitted by iAN CooG [PM] on 5 November 2021
Heh, clever, works by shuffling a couple of tables in the sid files so sid2sng gets confused on what to do, as it expects them in a fixed order.
Now I'm expecting a counter-tool to restore the tables in the original places and let sid2sng do its work :D
Edit: Siddump shows a couple of differences from the original and the protected version of the same sid, so it's not guaranteed they will sound the same after the alteration.
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Submitted by TheRyk [PM] on 5 November 2021
I beg to differ
And it's even worse that it's by someone who AFAIR doesn't use GT anyway
Two thumbs down from me
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Submitted by Joe [PM] on 5 November 2021
This is so incredibly cool; I don't know where to start! Don't steal my instruments MR! :D
Don't steal that snare!
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Submitted by Jason Page [PM] on 5 November 2021
Just for those who want to protect their GoatTracker .sid files from being converted back to .sng files :-)
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 461 |
"good artists borrow, great artists steal"
(reportedly Picasso, cliché as fuck, but it ought to be said at least once in this discussion i think)
or
more personally: stolen masterpiece >>> original bullshit :) |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1787 |
As a side note, there used to be the fun field of ripping music before HVSC had collected them all. :)
These come to mind: Give a Try, Arkanoid +2, Master of the Lamps and perhaps Rimrunner +2D
No standardized formats there, which was the great thing about it. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2218 |
@chuinho just scroll upwards, I've already posted that quote.
Seriously, my view on freedom of Art is: Art is allowed to do anything, ESPECIALLY stealing :) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quoting tlrAs a side note, there used to be the fun field of ripping music before HVSC had collected them all. :) All? :) |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1787 |
Quote: Quoting tlrAs a side note, there used to be the fun field of ripping music before HVSC had collected them all. :) All? :)
fair enough, most...many...some...a few? :) |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4720 |
What's next? Protecting gfx and code? :D |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1787 |
Quote: What's next? Protecting gfx and code? :D
I guess code is protected by obfuscation in most cases already. |
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DeMOSic
Registered: Aug 2021
Posts: 126 |
Quote: What's next? Protecting gfx and code? :D
wouldnt be suprised if yes ;)
people will take the code and shove it into something that modifies the code (GlItChY!!!11!1!) so that you can only look at the demo and you cant disASSemble it because the code is so GlItChY!!!11!1! =) GoOd PrOtEcC because the angy sceners who are disASSembling the code of the thing that does it so that you cant disASSemble the demos so that you can esrever the proccess so that you can still disASSemble the code |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2218 |
The "what's next stuff" (protecting code from being disassembled, encrypting gfx <- doing buttugly gfx or using terribly flickering formats will help, though, to make ppl shun from even trying) of course ain't gonna happen, and hopefully most readers have an idea why ^^ Protection measures found in games against crackers in 2021 is fun to be found proof-of-concept-wise (and as such I somehow can smile about the silliness of GT Protect, just to get BTT) but not really worth the trouble unless you have shitloads of time. |
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Jason Page
Registered: Sep 2015
Posts: 87 |
> But I'll also remain a fanboy of Joe and Jason Page no matter different views on concepts.
Thank you, TheRyk. Likewise - no offence meant or taken.
I feel that maybe I've caused a bit of a stir here...!
Why did I write GT Protect?
1) I've already written a SID>GT and SID>CC ripper. Initially I was really excited when I'd finished it.. But then I didn't release it as I wondered if it would actually damage the scene. For example, those who have particular tricks that they use when entering. I've no clear examples here. But I felt that it could actually stop people wanting to write music, if they felt their secrets would be easily used or whatever. Am I wrong? Is there actually a clear definition of wrong here? I don't know. So, I'm not wanting to argue this. Everyone has opinions, and everyone is right - So the debate would just go on pointlessly forever (again, IHMO!). Either way, that was my decision. So, one reason I wrote GTProtect was simply to try to actually keep people writing cool SIDs, and to keep the mystery of how those who do fucking amazing things with SID still a little bit of a mystery! That makes it sound like I was doing it for some "For the good of the people / Make him a saint" reason...
2) The challenge. Someone said on another thread regarding sng2sid that there's bound to be a tool to project SIDs now.. Show me a ladder and i'll climb it ;-) It only took a few hours to knock up over a number of evenings. It's not rocket science. It was just a bit of fun code.
And Jammer & co are absolutely right though - when I wrote my ripper a few years ago, I walked away with *nothing* in terms of learning! Other than "he's a fucking genius for getting sounds out of a 1x tune that I couldn't ever manage at 8x.". I then just used the ripper for helping people get their sngs back who had lost the originals, as it had little other worth.
It's all optional. I'm not against people ripping stuff or learning or anything else.
Someone said "this is silly" as a comment. Yeah, it is.
Its all silly. It's just fun retro silly hobby stuff. As 2bt was kind enough to opensource the ripper, it make it incredibly easy for me to work out how to deceive it. And it would be very easy to revert it to an unprotected SID, just by looking at the 6502 changes.
I'm not on some kind of crusade here. I won't be updating it to keep one step ahead or anything.
Cheers
Jason |
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