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Release id #237341 : Future Ninja
2023-12-05
11:22
hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4721
Release id #237341 : Future Ninja
User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 5 December 2023
Frostbyte: I think it was that it ended up as #3 in a compo and also was the #1 pic on csdb for a while. People also cheered for it on fb etc. ”Amazing”, ”outstanding”, etc. Then artists react I’d say.
User Comment
Submitted by Moloch [PM] on 5 December 2023
10!
User Comment
Submitted by Frostbyte [PM] on 5 December 2023
Whereas I think it is great that this picture finally sparked a serious conversation about possibly clarifying the scene's unwritten rulebook what comes to declaring use of sources and converters and providing workstages, I do get Oswald's point, D-Mage may just not know about the unwritten rules.
What I find a bit strange is that THIS particular image sparked the conversation, as there are many well established, praised talents in the scene who so blatantly obviously use online sources for their images as well as very heavily rely on advanced converters, and never provide workstages, but with them most of the scene remains silent. Maybe it's about which group you're in? ;)
User Comment
Submitted by Bob [PM] on 5 December 2023
I am not an artist.. but I can't help it.. I like this image.. and it would do great in a demo too...
User Comment
Submitted by rexbeng [PM] on 5 December 2023
Most artists wouldn't care about AI; it's just another tool added to the plethora of tools that over the years made the random pics we are used to look at, be less and less 'art'. If it's just 'joes' you're after with your creations, say on youtube, why spent hundreds of hours to make a video about something specific that interests you, when a random video with cats will generate a hell of a lot more appreciation and views and need just a fraction of the time to make? Would an artist opt to make videos with more of the same cats for Youtube?
Work stages is a joke when the talk is about digital images, I trust anybody can understand that. :)
User Comment
Submitted by Carrion [PM] on 5 December 2023
6 months ago at X'23 I was giving the presentation about my process of creating C64 images. I showed how I use Photoshop to cut and paste pieces of images (found on Internet) to produce some quick results that I later take to Timanthes for long process of detailing. Also a big part of my presentation was my thoughts on using AI and how it is a huge temptation on using it as a shortcut to create C64 gfx, and how I feel tempted to use it (and I probably will).
What I stated back then was that every time I use AI I will inform about it in release notes or CSDB comments. I also declared that I will include workstages and/or the source .psd files and references if used.
The feedback after my presentation was very good and together with few pixel-artists we had really interesting conversation after it.
And... 6 months later... nothing happened.
Partially my fault because a) I wasn't that active this year, b) the images I created for CD demos haven't used AI and but...
c) seams to me that majority of people don't really care about AI and workstages and source files.
Or do they? Do you care?
So... IMO this conversation we have here is a great opportunity to maybe start a new "tradition" to share the references, AI prompts/models used, .psd files, workstages etc to make it fully transparent. I also strongly believe that this will be also a great way to share knowledge, learn, and have even more fun.
What you say? Who's with me?
One more thing regarding this and similar converted pics. It worries me same way as Hein, The Sarge, and others already said, but hey, let people do what gives them fun of using C64. Is it converting, pixeling, wireing. Scene will judge anyway.
User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE [PM] on 5 December 2023
Perhaps y'all remember what I was saying here when I was told I was being a drama queen.
https://csdb.dk/forums/?roomid=12&topicid=158776&showallposts=1
Just sayin...
User Comment
Submitted by Wile Coyote [PM] on 5 December 2023
@The Sarge 'Maybe he did all by himself?'
Lol! ..absolutely not.
User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 5 December 2023
For me it’s about honesty. Do what you like, AI or not, but when you are competing in a compo: hell no. It’s also obvious to me that most joes (Sorry Joe) can’t tell a convert from original work, which must be frustrating for most artists.
Using converted AI instead of converting a googled pic also makes the source impossible to find, which adds to the frustration. Even work stages could be forged ofc, working backwards. I am sure that already happened somewhere. It’s sad all of it.
User Comment
Submitted by The Sarge [PM] on 5 December 2023
I think it would be great if D-Mage could step in and add to the conversation. That would maybe stop the speculation of how this was made. Maybe he did all by himself? But until he doesn’t we will not know.
Looking at the image it’s obvious for me it’s converted. You see it in the mathematical dithering that is all over the image. For some reason the author decided to enhance the eyebrows so those are most surely hand pixeled but the rest of the image is probably not.
IF D-mage made this image from scratch by himself, ie painted the original on another medium and then used a converter to make it appear on the C64 then it’s fine. It’s still not hand pixeled but he is the author of the art. It’s just that the conversion itself takes away a bit of the “magic” of the pixel art. And it sure is a shortcut.
And this is what it all boils down to, shortcuts.
If you use AI or someone else art then it is a major shortcut. It’s such a big shortcut that you can’t really compare this to art that is done by someone by hand, from a life long period of training the mind and hand to realise your vision and ideas. It takes a lot of effort making those hand made pixel art that people will hopefully remember and appreciate. For me it’s up to 40-50 hours per image and maybe a week or two trying to come up with an idea that I think would work. Before that its has been a life full of failed attempts. The life of an artist, being it code, music or visuals. It’s all the same. We try, we fail, we fail better. Then comes AI and converting and cuts all this down to 10 minutes of work.
Of course we get upset, sad and worried.
For me C64 art is where my cradle was and hopefully it will be with me until I die. So I hate to see it devolve into soulless AI art.
So please be careful in your judgment of images.
User Comment
Submitted by Hate Bush [PM] on 5 December 2023
if it's done by the supposed creator AND converted by AI - then finished by hand - i see no problem with this.
i don't ask if a musician tapped the tune into tracker (which would be correct, true, scene-wise and so on) or did the whole tune in DAW as MIDI and then imported into tracker of choice (which would be... spitting on those who swear by first option?)
User Comment
Submitted by Hein [PM] on 5 December 2023
I really hope AI conversions don't become the norm in graphics competitions. I can't keep up with that. :) Anyhow, as a motive this isn't that exciting either.
User Comment
Submitted by Flex [PM] on 5 December 2023
I think people are worried. It's been in the air for some time now and in general, converts / AI at this level brings up big questions about the future.
Still, myself not even being the "spokesman" on this (emotional) topic I'm after some more transparency and if there's any spit on this work, that's only there for the method and the end result being this good. This might be hard to accept and I pretty much understand from the point of true craftsmanship.
User Comment
Submitted by chatGPZ [PM] on 5 December 2023
I'd rather see a decent convert than another half-assed "hand pixelled" image.
What *really* stinks are those half-assed converts that don't even look good.
User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 5 December 2023
if your work is spit on, then you wouldnt feel anything personally ?
User Comment
Submitted by Flex [PM] on 4 December 2023
@oswald, I see nothing personal here. I'm hoping this launched compo will work as an eye-opener for the scene as it seems to me now that conversion / AI business is starting to gain too much ground.
I think converting is ok but trying to make people believe something else is not.
As a multicolour picture this one is ace.
User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 4 December 2023
this is d-mage's first pic after 30 years, probably he is not familiar with the current unwritten rules in the scene, maybe more patience would have been better instead of making laughing stock of him in the form of a compo.
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2023-12-10
14:26
Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 942
@hedning, agree, it's obviously a matter of taste. But as a practitioner of visual arts, it feels quite natural for me to move forward as such, albeit very slowly (still stuck in a 40 year old scene ;)).
2023-12-15
00:30
Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493
Why so complicated..
I value pixel art by 3 pillars. (not in random order)
1 - Concept
How striking and original is the idea you want to communicate, and how striking and original can you communicate the idea?
(
A popular example of conceptual artwork
)
2 - Style
Do you have your own visual signature, or is the style tailor-made to enhance the concept.
3- Handcraft
The actual execution in pixels. Less automation and references gets more value.
---
In case of AI
Good concept, good style, good handcraft: 9
Bad concept, good style, good handcraft: 7
Bad concept, bad style, good handcraft: 5
Bad concept, bad style, bad handcraft: 0
In case of converting
Good concept, good style, bad handcraft: 7
Bad concept, good style, bad handcraft: 5
Bad concept, bad style, bad handcraft: 0
In case of hand drawn on the C64
Good concept, good style, good handcraft: 10
Bad concept, good style, good handcraft: 8
Bad concept, bad style, good handcraft: 5
* The numbers are just an indication, reality may differ.
2023-12-15
02:44
spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498
@Sander: why so complicated?
Cat -> 10
No Cat -> no vote
XD
2023-12-15
07:56
bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2581
What about good concept, meh style and bad handcraft?
Asking for a friend :)
2023-12-15
10:14
Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493
Quote:
What about good concept, meh style and bad handcraft?
Asking for a friend :)
I even made a look-up-table 👆
2023-12-15
10:33
Electric
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 39
Quoting Sander
I value pixel art by 3 pillars.
How would you put these values in play when it's question of demos? … with the other far end being a demo using conversions not credited to the original artists and AI art that was not stated as that?
I might have to reconsider some of my earlier voting :) (public, of course).
2023-12-15
14:41
Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493
In case of pixel art in demos I see two differences.
1. The concept would be in favour of the general demo concept, so i’d turn some knob there. (The criteria of the concept would remain, but on a larger demo-scale)
2. As infrastructural graphics are usually required, and when no actual graphics people are involved, we shouldn’t judge it too hard. Unless someone takes all credit for handcrafting it.
Otherwise I think they still stand. Transparency / giving proper credits is always key.
2023-12-16
08:08
F7sus4
Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 117
The question is why should fast-art be "pardoned" in demos?
Do people really start to perceive graphics as an asset from texture pack in an AAA game? If so, is it because of lack of motivation or available manpower? Or is it simply because of willingness to release a production as fast, and as effective as possible?
Weren't demos supposed to show skills of all the members involved? I'm just not sure the corporate ultraproductive mindset (fast-fashion, fast-food, fast-everything) is a healthy model in demoscene environment.
2023-12-16
08:27
Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 942
Quote:
The question is why should fast-art be "pardoned" in demos?
Do people really start to perceive graphics as an asset from texture pack in an AAA game? If so, is it because of lack of motivation or available manpower? Or is it simply because of willingness to release a production as fast, and as effective as possible?
Weren't demos supposed to show skills of all the members involved? I'm just not sure the corporate ultraproductive mindset (fast-fashion, fast-food, fast-everything) is a healthy model in demoscene environment.
Working on a demo with strict project deadlines and ultimate goals such as winning X, I can imagine someone resorts to touched up conversions and AI generated base images. Peer pressure, I guess.
2023-12-16
12:52
Bitbreaker
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 504
Quote:
Working on a demo with strict project deadlines and ultimate goals such as winning X, I can imagine someone resorts to touched up conversions and AI generated base images. Peer pressure, I guess.
I am happy if doing a demo is far different from managing a software projects, just because i do not want that pressure, ultimate goals and deadlines in my sparetime, but ultimate fun. Achieving goals as fast as possible (by cheating with AI and more) is not fun, it is like taking a shortcut by cable car to reach a summit. The journey is the reward.
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