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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2925 |
Group id #4751 : Cincinnati Commodore Computer Club
This is a user group and _not_ a scene group... why is there an entry for it here?
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BAR.
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 324 |
Dear Moloch,
what is an user group ?
Could you please tell me the difference beetween driven magazine stuff and this entry ? Is this a magazine group ? Is any new CSDB member a scener ? In my eyes if you make differences (I never made one) than this forum wasn't that like it is.
Remember: They organize meetings for everyone. :)
But thanks to the guy who delete my entry at once without
any comment or p.m.
THIS IS "SCENE" NOWADAYS.. ?
NO, This is CSDB and some stupids around..
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Jon
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 247 |
"In my eyes if you make differences (I never made one) than this forum wasn't that like it is."
This has got to be the greatest thing ever written ever.
-Ninj |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
I vote for a deletion of this entry. |
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A Life in Hell
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 204 |
Quote: Dear Moloch,
what is an user group ?
Could you please tell me the difference beetween driven magazine stuff and this entry ? Is this a magazine group ? Is any new CSDB member a scener ? In my eyes if you make differences (I never made one) than this forum wasn't that like it is.
Remember: They organize meetings for everyone. :)
But thanks to the guy who delete my entry at once without
any comment or p.m.
THIS IS "SCENE" NOWADAYS.. ?
NO, This is CSDB and some stupids around..
As someone who isn't a scener, let me assure you that the scene and the "community" are entirely different things. Essentially, the difference is that the CCCC people tend to be boring, and like boring things like GEOS. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3049 |
I think such communities could stay here ins CSDB. But they should have their own entry (commodore club, community, or something like that) and they shouldn't be listed as demo or cracking groups. |
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BAR.
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 324 |
Dear A Life in Hell,
i swap since some times with CMN of CCCC.
He never send me GEOS stuff but pictures, covers,
he made a cover for scene world..
Give "lamers" a chance and they will join the scene.
Mhm or isn't he a scener now doing a cover for scene world..
:)
@all Now start thinking deep who is a scener or not..
What makes a scener or a group a scene group ?
This could be a very long discussion and i heard that
asking such questions made people sick and they lost interest to stay with us..
Once again, do you think only "REAL SCENERS" here ?
Don't think so... :)
But i don't care..
Tommorow possibly they could be some !
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Jon
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 247 |
How often do you go to Cinci?
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BAR.
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 324 |
Jon,
why should i go to Cinci, USA ?
Do you visit CCCC meetings in your land ?
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Maybe I'm wrong here but, that CMN dude has a couple of scene related functions (and as Baracuda mentioned, he also made disk covers, graphics or sth like that). Consequently, he should have a place in the database. And if CMN considers CCCC as his "group", well, that should be also indicated somehow regardless if the other "members" are just a bunch of old C64 nostalgics who wank to Geos and organize meetings...
Well, just my 2 cents. I should drink my coffee now :) |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
A scener is a person actively participating in (or aiming towards participating in) what we tend to call the scene. The scene is a pretty open structure in itself, but it seems to have some restrictions. First of all, there is a tradition of using handles, aliases ment for shrouding your identity, creating a myth and distancing it from the ordinary world out there. In the old days these handles were a pure necessity for the illegal side of the scene, to obscure their identity from softwarehouses and their legal actions.
Furthermore, the scene has very little connection to the commercial interests of the C-64 community, even if notable exceptions are known to have existed. The best example of this might be the people active on the Compunet, a forum which developed the demo and which spawned a lot of creating people making games. Ash+Dave, Ian+Mic, Reptilia Designs, Bob Stevenson and Dokk might be mentioned. But eventhough these individual persons might be seen as sceners, the companies they joined or built are not.
Third, people involved in the scene usually has an active focus on either the legal (demo) scene, the illegal (cracking) scene or both. Lately, we even got a kind of hangaround sceners who mostly mouth their opinions on webforums and IRC. These show an interest in participating in the above mentioned events, although are to lazy or busy bragging about themseves to participate.
As a scener, you usually have a role to fulfill, organizing yourselves into groups. Groups are the very fundement of the scene. A group is usually a tight-knit constellation of people with different functions. In my case, I am concidered a graphician (and in rare occations cracker and musician), but you can be a coder, musician, trader - any function that furthers the groups interest towards the legal or illegal scene.
To clarify my statement:
The "Cincinnati Commodore Computer Club" does not fit in to any of the above cathegories. They aren't a group, they doesn't contribute towards the demoscene nor the illegal side of the scene. The difference between CCCC and the Driven Staff is that the Driven Staff was using handles, making a magazine aimed towards the scene and reporting about it. And no - The Cincinnati Commodore Computer Club doesn't belong here, and will probably never. This is the Commodore SCENE Database. For a definition of the scene, read above. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Twoflower, you have convinced me. They should go :)
Edit: I mean, CCCC as a group should go, CMN has a place here as an individual in case he was involved in scene related activities. I think we all agree on that, right? |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
I agree, get rid of CCCC, before we get more entries of Commodore user groups. There's a shitload of 'em, just check comp.sys.cbm ;)
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3049 |
Quote: A scener is a person actively participating in (or aiming towards participating in) what we tend to call the scene. The scene is a pretty open structure in itself, but it seems to have some restrictions. First of all, there is a tradition of using handles, aliases ment for shrouding your identity, creating a myth and distancing it from the ordinary world out there. In the old days these handles were a pure necessity for the illegal side of the scene, to obscure their identity from softwarehouses and their legal actions.
Furthermore, the scene has very little connection to the commercial interests of the C-64 community, even if notable exceptions are known to have existed. The best example of this might be the people active on the Compunet, a forum which developed the demo and which spawned a lot of creating people making games. Ash+Dave, Ian+Mic, Reptilia Designs, Bob Stevenson and Dokk might be mentioned. But eventhough these individual persons might be seen as sceners, the companies they joined or built are not.
Third, people involved in the scene usually has an active focus on either the legal (demo) scene, the illegal (cracking) scene or both. Lately, we even got a kind of hangaround sceners who mostly mouth their opinions on webforums and IRC. These show an interest in participating in the above mentioned events, although are to lazy or busy bragging about themseves to participate.
As a scener, you usually have a role to fulfill, organizing yourselves into groups. Groups are the very fundement of the scene. A group is usually a tight-knit constellation of people with different functions. In my case, I am concidered a graphician (and in rare occations cracker and musician), but you can be a coder, musician, trader - any function that furthers the groups interest towards the legal or illegal scene.
To clarify my statement:
The "Cincinnati Commodore Computer Club" does not fit in to any of the above cathegories. They aren't a group, they doesn't contribute towards the demoscene nor the illegal side of the scene. The difference between CCCC and the Driven Staff is that the Driven Staff was using handles, making a magazine aimed towards the scene and reporting about it. And no - The Cincinnati Commodore Computer Club doesn't belong here, and will probably never. This is the Commodore SCENE Database. For a definition of the scene, read above.
Good explanation. I agree with your points.
I wonder what Wrath Designers think about the part about identity since they have got rid of the handles here in the CSDB. |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 289 |
CCCC is one of the few US user groups that promotes "scene" style activities in the US.
A number of scene people (including myself) are also members of CCCC.
CCCC's monthly newsletter tends to contain a lot of scene-related news, including sections on new demos released, new games released by sceners, upcoming compos, etc...
Finally, from time to time, CCCC does put out scene productions, such as invite-tros for the get-togethers.
Most of this can't be said about other US usergroups, so IMHO, CCCC is a valid entry here, while most other US usergroups would not be.
To say that CCCC is just a bunch of old farts who get together and "wank over GEOS" is simply wrong.
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Jon
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 247 |
Six-
Perhaps, in the interest of "validating" the CCCC within the scene here on the CSDb and the greater scene as it were, you might wish to consider uploading more of the invites and CCCC related "scene" materials.
Y'know, give the CCCC some more "street cred".
-Ninj |
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BAR.
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 324 |
Ninjasbane,
stop leeching and accept the facts..
Six mustn't give the CCCC some more "street cred" in my eyes..
Enjoy the release he add. But i'm sure there will be more after the meeting. :-)
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Jon
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 247 |
Well, since some of CSDb members are calling for the deletion of the entry, I think adding a few more releases might lend credibility and justification for why it should stay.
I don't quite understand the "leeching" comment, though. But whatever.
-Ninj |
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BAR.
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 324 |
The sceners who wants a deletion don't know the facts you can read now here and they did their comments before six wrote his statement. I thought of leeching because you don't want cccc here but their releases... ;) But whatever...
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Jon
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 247 |
LOL! No, I rarely if ever download, I only upload. I have little use for the demos and games here. I am mostly interested in the U.S. scene history and that's why I sort of "hang out" here.
Although I DO play M.U.L.E. every once in a while.
-Ninj |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2925 |
"The difference between CCCC and the Driven Staff is that the Driven Staff was using handles, making a magazine aimed towards the scene and reporting about it."
Also, with the expection of Coolhand, the rest of the Driven staff had years of scene activities under their belts (demos and wares).
CCCC isn't a scene group, it's very simple... adding releases, that were released outside of any group (C4 invite) as CCCC releases now is simply a joke.
Appears I'll have to dig out an old issue of Computes Gazette and start adding ~1000 user groups to CSDb - because they're all scene groups now! |
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BAR.
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 324 |
these guys qualified...
Check their site, read six words and check six release..
They do these year a demo compo, join in..
Or start to play Artillery Duel and you can win C64 Hardware..
Don't forget to buy a T-shirt. :)
Sorry could not add the cover CMN did because Nafcom told me
not to do anything for this CSDB again..
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 289 |
"Appears I'll have to dig out an old issue of Computes Gazette and start adding ~1000 user groups to CSDb - because they're all scene groups now!"
All of those user groups had sceners in them? Actively supported scene-related activities in the almost extinct US Commodore scene? All "~1000" of them published papermags that routinely covered scene activities and productions? All of those "~1000" user groups recruited sceners to produce intros and loaders for them?
Clearly this is the same thing.
And it's also 1987. |
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BAR.
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 324 |
don't be shy... |
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BAR.
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 324 |
A Party Report would be nice..
Would be intresting to read about the guests and what's up with people like these:
Attendants C4
Elwix, Jeri, Jim Brain, Pegasus, Schema, Six
Greetings,
Baracuda |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
Quote: A Party Report would be nice..
Would be intresting to read about the guests and what's up with people like these:
Attendants C4
Elwix, Jeri, Jim Brain, Pegasus, Schema, Six
Greetings,
Baracuda
You're a fish. |
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
I'm waiting untill the HCC Commodore User Group is added... because although most of them are 'bearded GEOS users' (no offence), there are also some sceners coming to the meetings... like Scout, Sander, Mace, to name a few.
------------------------------------
Knoeki/DigitalSoundsSystem/GheyMaidInc/SwappersWithAttitude |
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BAR.
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 324 |
Fade: You're boring
...Uh ist mir fade
Knoeki start adding all you want here or do you need others to do the job ? |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
I don't know what's the big fuss about it, really. At first I'd rather like to see all of the fake groups getting deleted from the database. I see much less harm of adding an okayish release which a computer group made under its own label than those utterly annoying SEUCK game cracks, ugly Basic demos, demo maker intros and their creators. And they're all being tolerated for some reasons.
Nevertheless, CCCC probably won't list all of their members here neither, only those who contributed to the scene. Sorry but this whole thread seems to me as nit-picking, nothing more. |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
I repeat - CCCC is NOT A SCENE GROUP! Neither is the other usergroups. I don't care what they do and how much they speak about sceneproductions in their papermags as long as they don't actively are partaking in the scene. I'm glad that CCCC are doing what they're doing, but they DOESN'T BELONG IN THIS DATABASE. What is goddamn wrong with you people? Read the above statement by me one more time and tell me why the heck they belong here?
"Hmm, many sceners work at Nokia and participate in their get togethers. They have even mentioned that they discuss oldtime computers and scene-demos there. And they have written about it in their internal magazine aswell! Oh, Nokia belong here... Let's see, I shall add Jorma Ollila as organizer, Aleksi Eeben as a musician and Tao as a hardware guru!" |
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Jon
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 247 |
Jailbird wrote: "I see much less harm of adding an okayish release which a computer group made under its own label than those utterly annoying SEUCK game cracks, ugly Basic demos, demo maker intros and their creators. And they're all being tolerated for some reasons. "
My guess would be... because they are all part of scene history?
Your comments got me thinking... what is the mission statement of this site, and what is the primary goal and function?
Is it to chronicle the the scene, past and present? Or is it merely a platform for neosceners to release their stuff? If it's the former, why WOULDN'T "annoying SEUCK game cracks, ugly Basic demos, demo maker intros and their creators" be "tolerated"?
What about swap crews that didn't release anything? Should their entries be "tolerated"? What about old outdated phreak tools, scene released term programs and copy tools (Phoneman and Arts Backup, for example). Do they belong here?
So I guess what I am asking is: is the CSDb meant to be an encyclopedia of sceners past, present and future, or is it meant to be a gathering place for modern sceners who are currently releasing software? Or is it both?
If someone could kindly clear this up for me, I'd appreciate it.
-Ninj
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
blablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablabl ablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablab lablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablabla blablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablabl ablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablabla |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quoting Twoflower"Hmm, many sceners work at Nokia and participate in their get togethers. They have even mentioned that they discuss oldtime computers and scene-demos there. And they have written about it in their internal magazine aswell! Oh, Nokia belong here... Let's see, I shall add Jorma Ollila as organizer, Aleksi Eeben as a musician and Tao as a hardware guru!"
And what would you do if Aleksi and Tao would decide to release a C64 demo under the label "Nokia"? :)
Well, CCCC is really none of my business but I still think it's much ado about nothing. I just tried to be sympathetic. If the majority concurs about the deletion, I'm with you. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Just get rid of the fucking entry because it doesn't belong here.
Baracuda: fuck off
Ninjasbane: fuck off too
Love ya! <3 |
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BAR.
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 324 |
Scout,
all what you are thinking is blablabla.
I know..
I didn't start this thread but i said let's think about all entries here in CSDB..
Scout fuck off it's easy to go to threads and say nothing but bla.. Should we now go in all threads edit our posts and add smilies, fuck offs, etc.. ?
Do you like to destroy CSDB ?
Well if yes, i'm sure you make a lot of friends..
But i'm sure you have some. LMA
CCCC will stay as all the other fake releases and the
fake groups will..
But i think what's wrong with CMN, Six and others doing stuff for them.. If all CCCC people write a Partyscroller then it counts.. ? Or must it have an Intro before and spread by disk or upload at a ftp.. ? Oh man..
I don't understand you here in CSDB hanging around and
opening threads like this. ONCE again:
CMN did a cover for the SCENE WORLD MUSIC and he is member of CCCC.. SIX did a release for CCCC.. Without CCCC no release from Six.. Expo is a party organised by them..
Without CCCC - No party..
Join these guys and don't make any differences between
the scene, the once here in 2007 and in the past please.
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Geez, what a huge amount of text to save an entry.
I ain't gonna read that.
No way. |
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Jon
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 247 |
Hi Scout!
Thanks for the love.
I guess you AREN'T the drug addled bloated sack of shit people tell me that you are!
They say you are a real ugly fuck, too. But I saw your picture and you are a stud!
Thanks again for your comments here and in my PM box! Send me another if you have time!
Ninjasbane |
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BAR.
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 324 |
Hi Ninjasbane,
use the ignore list for him. :) |
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Jon
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 247 |
Why would I want to do that? He sends me stuff like this:
***
Message sent by: Scout on 2007-04-11 14:56:27.572033+02
blablablablabla
***
I know it's a little dull to read, but I was hooked after the third "bla". It was amazingly intelligent and thought provoking.
AND, I learned that he isn't the drooling fat fucktard people keep telling me that he is. He is incredibly charming and witty.
Thanks again, Scout! You RULE!
Ninjasbane |
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BAR.
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 324 |
I did that with TWR, Scout. :) |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Funny to see how personal people get with a simple 'fuck off' =)
Oh well.
Anyway, do what you like with the entry.
I give up. |
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BAR.
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 324 |
Thank you,
Scout. |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
I find it sad to see how the scene has turned into a kindergarden for the elderly nowdays. Anyway, i agree with some of the above points.
I would say a Computer Club releasing demos (etc) under its own name, makes a subset of it as valid a group as any normal group, namely the subset involved in scene activities. I.e. the fact that they release something in the scene, promotes a subset of the club to a scene group (in the eyes of CSDb) and makes that subset belong in CSDb. As far as i remember it wouldn't be the first Computer Club to appear in CSDb either.
(For example, we don't say that a group doesn't belong in CSDb, just because it has an amiga or plus/4 division, do we? The part of such group that is C64 scene related belongs in CSDb, the rest does not. As far as i can see, its basically the same here.)
This doesn't mean that all their GEOS-paint pics, highscores and small basic snippets (etc) belongs in CSDb and it doesn't mean that all their 7323178 members should be added as sceners - common sense applies. Only the subset of the club that is interesting to the scene belongs here. This also means that not all computer clubs belongs here.
Feel free to point out any errors in my logic.
@twoflower: i'm not sure if i fully agree with your definition of a group as something which has members who has handles (it's tradition and cool, yes, but there are important exceptions), etc. But even according to that definition, it seems to me that CCCC belongs here. It looks like the members of CCCC interesting to the scene are using handles and that they have produced a release interesting to the scene (etc).
@Ninjasbane: both, but it's primarily meant as an encyclopedia of the past and present (and future? :) ) of the groups, sceners, releases and events of the scene. (and yes, that means that annoying stuff like (scene) SEUCKs, recracks, lamers and whatever belongs here) |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2925 |
"CCCC will stay as all the other fake releases and the
fake groups will.."
Difference here is fake groups actually have a place in the scene. If you don't understand/comprehend that than you've shown that your understanding of the scene is next to nothing.
CCCC hasn't released anything, the "C4 Invite" was released independent of any group. It has only been added now to try and build-up the bullshit case that CCCC is something other than a user group. I fully expect some quicky release with a CCCC logo to show-up here to try and keep the bullshit piling up.
"All of those user groups had sceners in them?"
They don't need sceners as members, because by adding CCCC here we are now saying that user groups are scene groups.
Also, plenty of user groups organize "Expos" that sceners attend. Does that suddenly make those groups into scene groups? No it doesn't. Robert Bernardo organizies the CommVex thing, I'm guessing that makes him a scener now?
community != scene
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 289 |
"CCCC hasn't released anything, the "C4 Invite" was released independent of any group."
I think I know what group I released an invitation intro for.
"It has only been added now to try and build-up the bullshit case that CCCC is something other than a user group."
No, it has been added now because there now is a record for the group the release was done for.
"I fully expect some quicky release with a CCCC logo to show-up here to try and keep the bullshit piling up."
Thank you for attempting to discourage any further releases for CCCC.
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Jon
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 247 |
Did I get personal somehow? I didn't mean to.
I wanted to tell you that you aren't the guy people tell me that you are. And I'm sure when they tell me that you go to the playground to masturbate, that is a complete lie.
But don't fret too much, Scout. I am QUITTING THE SCENE!
Why? Who cares.
But I have prizes. Lots of prizes. Let's award them!
Ninjasbane |
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BAR.
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 324 |
Dear Jon Mines,
today i received a letter by CMN and after reading this,
i removed him from CSDB, the CCCC is locked by six.
You have to ask him to remove this entry now..
GO64 was removed also.
Bad idea to add your IRC chats, Jon. :0
The admins talked to me about your feelings and it seems
we both did mistakes. ;)
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