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Forums > CSDb Entries > Release id #166930 : Yoomp!64 +3PD
2018-08-02 23:35
hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 1842
Release id #166930 : Yoomp!64 +3PD

Moved the discussion to the place for discussions. :)

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 2 August 2018
Backup board is invoked if one of the main boards is down during the whole 24h. How would it make sense otherwise? If Reflections was down one hour 03 in the morning just when you tried to upload your crack, the rest of the groups wouldn't notice, and lose just because one board was down for some time during the 24h. 24h rule must mean 24h. If one board is gone for 24h, the backup board goes into effect. That is logical to me. Especially as the race isn't over until 24h have passed.

If two or three (our four?) boards all have hickups during the 24h you mean there are no boards to be counted? Your view of the rules does not make sense. I will count the boards and the releases after 24h have passed. That will show who won the race.

User Comment
Submitted by Jazzcat [PM] on 2 August 2018
We were first on all boards and sites initially. During that time both Antidote and The Hidden were down, according to the rules, the backup site RapidFire is then invoked and we were first there (and Reflections) thus we were first on the majority of boards using the 24 hour rule. Regards. Note: you cannot re-invoke downed boards. When they are down, backup is in play.

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 2 August 2018
Antidote and The Hidden were down for some time, but came up within the counted 24h when we tried to upload our crack, and we were able to be first on both. We also went with Reflections and the backup BBS Rapidfire, even if the latter is a bit redundant, as we already were first on 2 out of 3 counted boards within the counted 24h. Cheers!
 
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2018-08-10 03:20
Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 961
Quote: Just to say while someone’s talking about the rules being broken before... the Vandalism rules were updated following this release to define it in a way that, of course, would give Onslaught the first. If a BBS is down, they go to the backup.

What’s not clear to me though is:-
- how long does the BBS need to be down? A second? A minute? An hour? 24 hours?
- how is the BBS being down verified?

To me, just saying “you can use the fallback if a BBS is down” is just open to even more cheating... it’s not clearly defined. It’s STILL a broken rule. This stuff isn’t rocket science... choose a rule and stick to it.

Propaganda’s rules, to me, make sense. 24 hours means 24 hours, down means down, etc. This is what’s needed: hard and fast rules that don’t allow cheating.

Jazzcat claimed that groups may cheat by making BBS’s go down to their advantage... this seems very odd to me - if you can’t trust the 3 BBS’s that you list as the mains, you have the wrong BBSs. Surely you NEED to be able to trust them to be fair? If you can’t, it’s not just them being “down” that you should worry about - you should worry about traffic priority, transfer failures and all sorts of dirty tricks that could be used. Trust them 100% - or not at all.

Also, wow, if what Hedning says is true, which i’m sure it is, feeding releases to a crack group against their will is an amazing way to make sure you’re not publisher more from that developer.


Regarding BBS downtime. I think that can be discretionary. Obviously a minute or two is a bit awkward. People would just retry. But for a whole day (during business hours the case of Yoomp) then this is an obvious fallback rule. It is a race, not a waiting game. Will review this when I am looking at all the rules together with Bordeaux (Tim). The goal being that we need the rules and their gaps ironed out so that people can have fun and not be bogged down in debates. Also to correct you, they are not my rules. They are heavily based on existing rules set by Psychobilly for The Pulse magazine in 1993. They have been added onto by myself, Vengeance/Success+TRC and Taper/Triad and at times with the consensus of others.
2018-08-10 07:37
hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 1842
Wait. What? So the cracking scene and its rules should be made to fit people’s working hours? Why is that even a factor in this?
2018-08-10 08:19
Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 129
Will overtime points be awarded for releasing cracks outside of office hours? 2x points would make sense. And 1.5 at peak times.
2018-08-10 09:17
Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 961
Quote: Wait. What? So the cracking scene and its rules should be made to fit people’s working hours? Why is that even a factor in this?

no, but if a bbs is down, peak or off peak then fallback should be used for a majority ruling.
2018-08-10 10:54
Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 129
Quote: no, but if a bbs is down, peak or off peak then fallback should be used for a majority ruling.

That's possibly the craziest thing I've heard on this thread so far... it makes no sense. It opens the whole system up to a huge amount of abuse and cheating.

As I said before, choose BBS's that you trust and that are well maintained. They shouldn't normally be down for long - if they are, they shouldn't be on the preferred list.
2018-08-10 11:03
Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 961
Quote: That's possibly the craziest thing I've heard on this thread so far... it makes no sense. It opens the whole system up to a huge amount of abuse and cheating.

As I said before, choose BBS's that you trust and that are well maintained. They shouldn't normally be down for long - if they are, they shouldn't be on the preferred list.


it hasn't done so far. but will go over this and other rules as previously mentioned.
2018-08-10 11:16
Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 129
Well it arguably just has ... putting the version issue aside (pre-release, v0.99, demo, preview, whatever), there was also an argument earlier about whether G*P or Onslaught were first.

Onslaught weren't able to upload to the preferred boards within the 24 hours.. G*P were.

The issue of course being that the Propaganda rules have now changed - or "had their definition clarified".

I don't see the point in opening a system up for abuse just for the sake of gaining points on a single release ;-)
2018-08-10 11:17
Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 129
But anyway, I'll leave this now ... better things to do - and it feels like common sense, this time, isn't going to prevail...
2018-08-10 11:28
Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 129
"UPDATE 04.08.2018: Clarifications for the uninitiated: this includes the "fallback board" if other "counted boards" are offline.

The reason we don't wait for boards to be back up is that people can control the boards (pulling those strings!) - bringing them down at leisure and then bringing them up when they want (how convenient! let's make everyone have one leg while we run on two!). The race to the counted "Online" boards as first resolves this 'manipulative little trick'."

^^^ as I say, if you can't trust the BBS', don't put them on the preferred list. It's as simple as that. The simpler the rules are the better.
2018-08-10 13:10
hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 1842
Quote: "UPDATE 04.08.2018: Clarifications for the uninitiated: this includes the "fallback board" if other "counted boards" are offline.

The reason we don't wait for boards to be back up is that people can control the boards (pulling those strings!) - bringing them down at leisure and then bringing them up when they want (how convenient! let's make everyone have one leg while we run on two!). The race to the counted "Online" boards as first resolves this 'manipulative little trick'."

^^^ as I say, if you can't trust the BBS', don't put them on the preferred list. It's as simple as that. The simpler the rules are the better.


In the Propaganda rules we will instead delete cheating boards from the list of counted bords. Easy as that. Will post the updated propa rules tonight.
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