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2012-01-25 22:30

Dr.j

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 277

why cracking lame games?

hey there , i beleive some of you especially the crackrs wan't like my topic but i hardly can understand how decent groups cracking such lame "new" games , that some of them made on basic (or look it..), especially previews or unfinshed games. i understand the desire to crack and to continue the good old cracking scene (thats important and i support it) but for god sake the intros look much better than the games , only a few looks decent like POP 3 but the rest (as much as i saw lately) are really poor . i feel uncomfortable with this cracking.

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2012-01-27 16:30

plagueis
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2007
Posts: 48

@Mr. Mouse:

"Look, there is no point at all to crack any game on the c64 in 2012. Period. Not lame ones, not cool ones. It's a pointless effort. It's a rediculous activity to be carried out by any grown man at the age of 40. It won't save the world, nobody ever cares about it (discounting us sceners, which likewise nobody in the world cares about), there is absolutely no market of consequence for it, and in the eyes of sane persons, it's a very nerdy and lame thing to do. "

So your idea of "sane persons" is defined by a global or regional consensus which you apparently follow without question? I guess this was sarcasm, judging by the next two paragraphs, but the first one was so stupid I had to say something. First of all, you are wrong. There is a major point to crack any game...namely that of intellectual enrichment and bolstering one's Reverse Engineering skills as well as enhancing those of coding as well. RCE (Reverse Code Engineering) is a certifiable job in I.T. now, if you need something that helps you fall in line with the 'sane masses'. So bullshit on your first point, and as to your second one...there is a "market of consequence"...check out "Secrets of Reverse Engineering" (2005) by Eldad Eilam. 'Nerdy' is a stupid fucking label invented to facilitate fear of higher than standard intellect, esp. in the U.S.

I still see your point, it's just that the stupid shit that came out of your mouth raised the noise floor so high it was hard to hear anything else. I don't give a shit what the rest of the world thinks about what I do, especially if it is leading to the aggrandizement of my own mental abilities.

As for the "lame" games...cracking has always been (at least for the crackers) about defeating the protections, more than anything else. Those in it for some kind of external boost to their self worth are the real lamers to me.

Someone said, all cracking aside from their idea of cracking is garbage. In my opinion, any cracking that someone learns from is good, but that doesn't mean everyone wants to see it. I code, crack and train many things that I don't post here, simply because there would be nothing original about such a release, and I only did it for practice......practice other coders/crackers had years ago, but I am just now finding time in my life to get around to. The fact that it's now 2012 and not 1988 doesn't bother me in the least, and if it bothers any of you, I pity you.

All this being said, I have encountered a few people whom I met on this forum, who seem to have a bit too much (way too much) of their self-worth invested in the c64 coding/cracking scene, and I must say they walk a difficult path indeed. They are the type of folks who are scared to admit when they don't know something and so they won't ask, but then when they *do* find out a new technique, they think its some big secret only they are privy to. I can only pity that type of personality.

2012-01-27 17:56

Mr. Mouse

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235

Must have hit a snare there, plagueis. In any event, I was talking about the *C64 cracking*, read my message. You don't have to tell me what's the use of reverse engineering, I founded the XeNTaX Game Research Forum and also created MultiEx Commander back in 1997. I spent many hours figuring out file formats, and delving into assembly once in a while. I can understand if you use the cracking as training, but I don't get why you'd do it on a c64. It's an obsolete computer, why not do it on more modern systems. Of course I was being sarcastic to a big point, but you have to face it: the world really doesn't care about the c64. And to me the point of cracking was to make it possible to copy a game to another computer, improving it, making better loading routines etc. I also understand that you are now getting round to coding you wished you could have done in 1988, and I've done my share as well in the 2000's. Nevertheless, this is for personal gain only, and the amount of people that will ever use a crack currently released is of course nothing compared to 1988. Compared to the world population, it is negligible. Nothing. No point. ;-) But do continue, if it makes you happy. It's your free time, not mine, and you can do whatever you wish with it! I'd rather make another SID tune. Another useless time-spending.

2012-01-27 19:44

plagueis
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2007
Posts: 48

Mr. Mouse: Well, what platform we are talking about doing assembly on, to me anyway, is irrelevant, since I found that once I learned one architecture well, I could learn other architectures quite easily, and it all runs together as the same issue. There are some assholes on here who think the c64 is the only real platform, and all others, including Amiga and PC, are lame and illegitimate. I find that surprising, but I have enough open minded friends, that I find the former ideas sad, but irrelevant to me.

I wasn't trying to denigrate you personally, I just didn't like the intimation that people who have specialized scientific and technological interests are non-sane "nerds".

Saying a piece of technology is *obsolete* is a ridiculous piece of subjective opinion passed off as fact, something I wouldn't expect from a Ph.D holder. The C64 is no longer a great device for making millions of US dollars for capitalist pigs, but it's quite useful for teaching oneself 65xx assembly, especially for those like us with a nostalgic background of watching intros and people like me who Grew up consuming ESI cracks.

The reason an actual cracker cracks is generally for the challenge, according to most interviews. For every skilled cracker back in 1990, there were 200 people who mindlessly leeched the latest warez off of elite boards, so if that was one's main interest (simply getting free games), then it could be easily serviced (back then and esp. now) by simply leeching.

2012-01-27 20:11

Mr. Mouse

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235

It's true, though. The hundreds of game file formats I've checked and demystified I did only for the challenge. The puzzle. It's really just a puzzle game. And a very addictive one for me personally. But it helps others who wish to create some mod for some game, so both win.

I can understand that outsiders who see me glued to some hex editor for hours think I'm nuts, though. So I do see your point, creating c64-cracks is for the challenge, but I often wonder if I'm a little mentally "special" for liking such a file format activity of my own that much. ;-) It's not really a mainstream thing to do, you must agree. And it too doesn't cure cancer, which in all probability would earn a lot more respect =).

Anyway, back to the topic, perhaps we should start analysing the so-called cracks for simple intro-tagging, or actual code changes in the original to make it run elsewhere. Then again, perhaps not, as it would cost all of us a needless amount of time.

As for cracking the lame games, I think we established that it's perfectly alright to crack a lame game, as long as there was a protection of some kind that needed circumventing, or some loader improved, size crunched, trainer build. I wonder though, where do these games come from? Were they all originals that never had been cracked before, because crackers back then did not care about it (wouldn't earn them respect?).

2012-01-27 21:05

The Ignorance

Registered: Apr 2006
Posts: 85

You all have some points, but you still miss imho a very heavy part.
Some/or most games you call as lame are seldom or never cracked or buggy cracked.
Some people seek them down, buy them and are making coverscans, manualscans and transfer the images to PC to keep all preserved.
And if they want to make a release for this effort it's ok for me.
If it is needed to release year 2000+ games which are downloadable from the web by the coder is imho sth different.
Better this than seeing WDR and recracks again.
Lame games: where to draw the line?
Just my 2.38 cents...

2012-01-27 22:14

plagueis
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2007
Posts: 48

The Ignorance: I agree totally there with what you say...I agree with Mouse too in his latest post, but even if what we do with low level coding isn't understood by the mainstream, who cares? I sure as fuck don't.

I can't speak with great experience on this topic, as I'm no great cracker with 30 years of experience, but I enjoy learning.

I put in my points due to the fact that I don't like seeing what I consider discouraging talk about any aspect of 64 activity, and I'd like to see it continue for years, simply because there will be plenty of active individuals from whom I can learn from and enjoy their prods.

As for coverscans, cart dumps, originals etc....I've bought plenty of stuff of of ebay and scanned it and dumped carts myself, etc. I'm all in favor of people doing that. My efforts don't even always amount to a release, simply because I don't have a lot of ego invested in this, not personally. If I did, that might be quite 'nerdy', since then my self-image would be directly be proportional to my release list...which in my own case, is not yet very impressive.

Luckily, there are a lot of cool dudes who do this for the sheer fun, and in the OCS Amiga community (very small) it's like 100% done for the love of doing a (crack) job right. I think that's the recipe for keeping activity going into the foreseeable future...but I'm way off topic (not really).

2012-01-27 23:47

The Shadow

Registered: Oct 2007
Posts: 304

Every few years I see someone complaining about some form of scene activity.
Cracking is just as relevant on the C=64 as is any other system. Everyone has their favorite computer and everyone within the scene has their favorite activity.
The age of the Commodore is irrelevant. For instance, I enjoy rebuilding and restoring old and antique cars.
The current car I drive was built in the early 1980s. My car weighs the same as a standard police car and has comparable armor. In a crash it is a very safe car. Now to get into old versus modern, let's compare my car to say a modern Toyota Prius. A Prius is rated at 43 miles per gallon fuel efficiency. My car gets around 40 miles per gallon fuel efficiency. My car can take a severe beating. Crash in a Prius and the driver is likely to become the meat of a metal sandwich. The turn radius of my car is much wider than a Prius too.
This is an example of why the age of equipment is irrelevant.
Our scene is a wonderful community first. Our activities within the scene do not need to fit in with some modern definition of good activity. We could all be doing nothing more than weaving straw baskets and our scene would still be great.

2012-01-28 00:29

Zyron

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381

So to sum up the thread, if a c64 crack crashes you're in a much bigger risk of severe injury than if it was a crack of a game from a more recent/modern platform. No wonder The Dr.j feels uncomfortable with this cracking.

2012-01-28 00:34

Mr. Mouse

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235

Quote: So to sum up the thread, if a c64 crack crashes you're in a much bigger risk of severe injury than if it was a crack of a game from a more recent/modern platform. No wonder The Dr.j feels uncomfortable with this cracking.

You got it bro'. =)

2012-01-28 00:38

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350

"We could all be doing nothing more than weaving straw baskets and our scene would still be great."
that pretty much sums up what i think those crackers think who release those games the thread is about.

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