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2009-11-18 06:54

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578

Votesystem FAIL

OK, so why the vote system still exists, especially after all the devastating things it produces, is absolutely way beyond me.
It's rarely a representation of an objective, summarized opinion of the community. Either it's a playground for immature ding-dong fights I've had the luck to experience the last time in kindergarten, or it's simply a place for good old fashioned circlejerks.

I second Scout. At least I second the notion that this isn't really a place where I'd like to spend my spare time.

The constant pop-ups of topics considering the defecting vote-system is clearly a sign of something not working here the way it should. And yet, the cry ups keep getting ignored. For years.

Captain obvious is here to present you two options. One is to finally fix it, the other is to remove it for good. The latter one would be probably the best for all of us. And I think I'm speaking in the name of 99% of CSDb users here when I say that. Time to realize we are not IMDb with hundreds of millions of users, where a similar voting model works (more or less). Here, it's flawed and it simply fails on many, many levels

Pretty pretty please. Dudes who make and administer this site. Your work is fucking damn appreciated. I'd suck of all of you without a single second of consideration.

But for fucks sake.

... 187 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2009-11-21 14:48

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578

Oswald, and you also tend to forget about our colleague who used the votesystem as a field for his rage filled revenge-campaign, and was even damn proud about it. In his defense, at least he wasn't anonymous. But we're talking about slight mental/social deficients here!
So don't tell me that downvoting the works without a reason (even non-anonymously) of someone you have disagreements with, is actually on the same level as a discussion, whether it's negative or not. I think that the former solution is simply dumb.

2009-11-21 15:05

NecroPolo

Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231

Just a thought: surely, you know this voting system:

Remix64

I think, it works pretty well in practice. Fewer people make more votes there.

Not much negative attitude in there and no anonymous personal revenge tours, though...

2009-11-21 15:21

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086

Quote: Oswald, and you also tend to forget about our colleague who used the votesystem as a field for his rage filled revenge-campaign, and was even damn proud about it. In his defense, at least he wasn't anonymous. But we're talking about slight mental/social deficients here!
So don't tell me that downvoting the works without a reason (even non-anonymously) of someone you have disagreements with, is actually on the same level as a discussion, whether it's negative or not. I think that the former solution is simply dumb.

actually I have ~10 active downvotes myself aswell :) I dont think this is mental/social defect, people are different. I'm part of the crowd who takes things often too seriously, but grew old enough to see that. Everyone else should do so, and stop whining. Defending your release in the comments or pms is also one thing you should not do, because its just stupid. Yes I have done that too.

2009-11-21 15:56

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578

Quoting Oswald

Everyone else should do so, and stop whining.

Riiight. Easy to say, yet impossible to realize in practice.

The endless wining is caused by a flawed votesystem.

Your, or Groepaz's solution is to somehow change the people who feel injured by it, force the whole shit down their throat until they get totally full, dull, uninterested, and finally get used to it as a necessary bad.

My solution is to change or dismiss the system which is causing the constant uproars, by pressing some buttons.

So tell me, which solution is faster, more realistic or efficient without continuing to hurt the community?

2009-11-21 16:33

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086

go and convince Perff. I'm not against changing the system, I just say I dont think it will have the desired effect. It may lower the negative stuff, but it will not go away.

btw is the downvoting really such a huge problem? what was the last time you saw it happen?

2009-11-21 16:47

Radiant

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639

I agree with Stainless Steel. This thread is about 400% too long.

2009-11-21 17:05

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578

Quoting Oswald

btw is the downvoting really such a huge problem? what was the last time you saw it happen?

Well I'm not directly affected by the downvoting (yet), at least as far as I'm aware (I'm not checking the votes on me or my releases daily, right). I've had a downvote-stalker years ago, but he either changed/removed his votes or the user got deleted.

But I see downvotes here and there on new releases, every 3-4 months a topic pops up, and people do talk about it. So yes, it's a problem.

Anyway, you're right. Why the hell I'm actually advocating the improvement of the votesystem at all?

Wait I know. Cursing out loudly and looking on the screen with an annoyed/shocked/dumb face expression looks exactly like I was very busy with my tasks @ the office, so this way I could easily get away from doing actual work whilst not thinking too much, and just typin shit and stuff on CSDb during the whole goddamn day.

2009-11-21 17:46

Soren

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547

please makez az wouté-zystem wizh nomberz from -236572 to 12839723752.237881 !!!!!1

End of thread!
Game Over !

2009-11-21 17:55

Ed

Registered: May 2004
Posts: 173

When this post is written, the amount of voters are 1775 and together make up the sum of 74842 votes. At the current Csdb consists of 81190 releases. This means that there are not enough of voters and votes made to make all of the csdb releases carry their weightened vote. In fact that only theoretically covers for about 14968 releases, since the system is based upon that 5 voters give their votes all together. That's about 18% of all the csdb releases. Think about it!

Now to make things even worse we all know that far from every release have even got that attention and since there are only 1775 active voters, and most of them have only given away some aprox 40+ votes that does not make up to much. To simply state the obvious: people are good at talking much, worse at producing change.

I have for my own part voted on 8793 releases, which only covers about 10% of all the database of releases and requires at least four more people to equally vote on all those 10% in order for the charts to actually change. My votes are not making much change, except for in some cases those small productions that have not gotten that much of votes. Of course, with the current weightened algorithm, that is both as true as it is a lie.

Now. The way I see it, there are many different tactics to get around with the current vote system. One way would simply to change the amount of voters necessary in order for a release to get a weighted vote. For instance, instead of 5 people, with ten votes many of the releases that are on csdb now, would fall out of the charts completely. Others would still stay in the same chart position as they are now (with all those down- and upvotes, cowardvotes, friendpoints or whatever you decide to call it.) Probably not so much of a win-win-situation there for anyone.

If the amount of votes would be changed to one instead, then as I have shown at least in theory we could cover about 92% of the csdb releases. Not sure that would give much either, since it would make the charts list extremely large. And considering how the algorithm works, not sure it would give that much back. So back to square one. How to deal with the problem that causes so much emotional pain ?

Showing off the votes, would clearly give a good hint of what some of the most active voters think , but considering that there are only about some 135 people that actually bothered to click and vote on some 100 different releases, it would not give so much. If we look at some of the top demos, and images. There are not more than aprox 200 votes anyways for the top productions, which clearly tells us something about the diversity and heterogenity of our community. Showing off the votes public or not would still not change the fact that there are releases that have been given the vote 1.

So what about changing the algorithm of the weighened vote? One way would be to consider stuff like amount of downloads, amount of voters that actually cared enough to vote, and what they voted. But then the more complex the formula grow, how much more would it give back to the users and the community as a whole? A release with about 1 download but with some odd 50+ votes, would clearly only show that most people where too lazy to download it but probably only checked the release via the website (for instance a image) or perhaps it could be explained by the fact that the release was older and therefor already been a part of our collective memory (both in it's more literal but also metaphoric sense). Another example is where you have a release that has been downloaded for aprox 500 times, but only with about some 20 voters. It could of course be explained with the lack of local storage needs.

Anyways. Just check the numbers. They are all in the database.. I hope this will give you something . Thank you for your attention.

2009-11-21 18:03

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578

OMG Ed, even the density of your text made my head hurt, I'm afraid of actually reading it.

Edit: okay read it. This is why Enthusi's idea would work the best here.

Once again:

Quoting enthusi

Each CSDb-scener has alist of 5 (or 10) all-time-fav demos/gfx/crack/tools (or just releases).
Those are public :) [though that is not necessary for this system]
The Top 10 of each category is generated daily based on the overall number a release appears in one of those lists.
So if 100 people have DeuxExMachine in their top5 this is better than a demo that only 90 people consider their personal top5.
This will give weight to old releases as well and nothing will/can be downvoted...
I see no point in differing between VERY bad and VERY VERY bad like it is now...
We need a BESTOF and that's all...
Downvoting will then be equal to NOT having a demo in his/her own list ;-)

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