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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
a plea from an old schooler
please dont use modified PAL emulating screenshots for pictures on this site.
people may want to use this site to download unmodified c64 art in gif or png format with pure pixel definition.
if they want to see the stuff in highly debatable pal emulation mode people can download the PRG files and view them in that mode on an emulator.
Thanks
Steve |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11165 |
no, luma has no effect on color at all :) luma == "brightness" chroma == "color". the chroma part is identical for old/new vic, only the luma levels for certain colors differ (see peptos webpage). |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
ofcourse the different lumas have an effect on the colors and their combinations!
The point about the ageold discussion of new-vs-old-lumas is that there weren't many machines produced with the old VIC. And even less are still in use today (yes, relatively speaking), since, being the oldest, they're more likely to die (e.g. failing PSU caps frying them)..
Hence most websites, programs etc. in the PC age are based on the new Lumas, hell, we don't even have an old luma palette in Mufflon! ;-)
I personally never tested my pictures, our demos etc on an old luma machine - simply because i could never find one! ;-) My neighbour had one (at the time i didn't know about the old/new VIC thing, so I thought his dark grey being darker than brown was due to him using a greenscreen with his c64, somehow "burning" out the VIC by not using colors or sth! ;-), but i missed it when he sold it/threw it out... |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
I do know what chroma and luma are :P but, a chroma with different lumas = another perceived colour, else there wouldn't be many colours around ;)
*edit*
that was in reply to groepaz |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quote: no, luma has no effect on color at all :) luma == "brightness" chroma == "color". the chroma part is identical for old/new vic, only the luma levels for certain colors differ (see peptos webpage).
Meh. Since there is no color without luma (just black) i strongly object to this definition! 8)
Luma is an integral part of the color. Color != chroma.
I know, the greek word prolly means the same thing, but there simply is no color without luma, just like there is no color when there is no light...
Chroma is the tint, while luma is the brightness. Only *together* both form the actual color!
You wouldn't say Purple is the same color as pink, just because pink is a brighter version of purple, now would you? 8) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5034 |
the pepto palette is based on exact measurements of the c64's signal, which findings were converted to RGB from YUV. It will never get much better than that, it can only be slightly more accurate. As gpz says use Vice's settings to get the contrast/etc or even the blur factor to your likings.(settings, video settings). Old luma: settings, vicII setting, take check off from new luminances. |
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Ed
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 173 |
PNG to c64 koala conversion using for instance Project One is definitely a great way to preserve images and also making it easy to work with (throwing files back and forth, in and out of different software or even hardware, for that matter).
Some 10 years ago Joe made a palette similar to the pepto palette on the Amiga, which with the proper saturation, brightness and contrast looked as close to as possible without further manipulation as the c64 output. Oddly enough this was never reproducible on the PC. One reason perhaps was that the higher bits required for generating the graphics but there are probably other reasons concerned with hardware, etc. We never figured it out, and then all of a sudden there was Pepto.
The first sid-players sounded like crap and for almost a decade I was strongly against the emulation of the c64 in many aspects. Nothing sounded like it had on my various machines and it is only by today I am starting to find "how it sounded like" due the large pack of sid settings made available for the emulators. I still miss the horrible hiss which created an aura of authenticity and ambience to the otherwise very minimalist sound I am known for.
Graphic-wise I am still not content with how the emulator works with images such as for instance single-color graphics, etc. And the way I see it there are multiple more ways this database can develop into without loosing its original meaning. Limitations are made to be explored.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Chessboard pixels melting the screen like barf. A time when white text on black background created a hiss. Raster-bars flickered and sounds stuttered whilst running the discs. All those moments are lost in time, like posts on csdb... |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5034 |
nice poetry at the end Ed :) but afterall like someone here already said we spent serious amount of time trying to get rid of all those artefacts. I always hated the constant noise with the rf cable, often very slight tech-tech waving, noises coming for weird color combos, screen shifting where there is a lot of white etc. etc. I'm glad they are gone in emus. |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
lol yes i remember all that well, in the days before decently priced phillips monitors :)
thats why most of us used to avoid the use of white on our greyscale stuff.
one small area of white and all the greys would visibly drop back in brightness by about 50%, and the white would leap out.
we used to call it "blowing the screen"
and i remember tvs that used to buzz like an angry bee if u flood filled white on a black background :)
ah the good old days :)
Steve |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11165 |
Quote:Meh. Since there is no color without luma (just black) i strongly object to this definition! 8)
doh. ofcourse. now we are at the point where terms used by "normal people" and "technical people" clash - and which is one of the primary reasons for this type of discussion often going in circles =)
i am, when speaking about analog video, using the technical terms that apply to just that. and in analog video - by definition - the terms refer to what i said.
the actual *percieved* color ofcourse consists of both. and at the same time "red" and "light red" are - in terms of analog video - the same color, with different luma :)
Quote:Oddly enough this was never reproducible on the PC. One reason perhaps was that the higher bits required for generating the graphics but there are probably other reasons concerned with hardware, etc. We never figured it out, and then all of a sudden there was Pepto.
one important aspect that is often forgotten is also, that PAL and VGA (or better: YUV and RGB) work in very different color spaces, and because of that it isnt even possible to convert every color properly from one to the other. like the much higher white level in PAL cant be reproduced by VGA at all (and on the other hand, PAL can not produce true 0;0;0 black). thats another reason why to some peptos example palette looks a bit "dull".
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
@Ed, you've watched too much Blade Runner ;)
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