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Forums > CSDb Info > Release standards for cracks in CSDb
2008-08-01 15:59
Perff
Administrator

Posts: 1677
Release standards for cracks in CSDb

There have been made some new rules about what types of cracks we allow to be added to CSDb. (See the reason in the Preamble section below)
To begin with we post the rules here, but they will soon be includes in the general rules page.
CSDb release standards for cracks
---------------------------------

The following rules were collected and assembled by the CSDb staff, with help
and acknowledgement of a few people which represent the active cracking scene
of today and/or have profound knowledge of the cracking scene of the past:

 - The Ignorance (Nostalgia)
 - Jazzcat (Onslaught)
 - Burglar (SCS*TRC)
 - Jihad (Hitmen)
 - Widdy (Genesis*Project)
 - Ian Coog (Hokuto Force)
 - Taper (Triad)

Preamble:
---------

In the past CSDb always tried to keep the philosophy "we shall not judge
release quality" and we relied on the self-awareness of our users to do just
that. However, the recent months showed us that this approach doesn't work
anymore for the cracking scene. Since there is no more "authority" (such as
countless disk mags in the past) that reviews and ranks cracks, which is
somewhat fundamental for the competitive nature of the cracking scene, more
and more sub standard releases surfaced, some of which we do not consider
scene releases at all anymore. And our users started to question wether all
and everything is considered a scene release these days, and demanded us
to put an end to all the flaming and crap releases.

So these rules were designed, loosely related to the old firstrelease rules
(which were valid for almost 3 decades) with some more stuff added, and some
other stuff changed to reflect the nature of CSDb (for example we do NOT only
consider actual firstreleases, nor do we keep out "fake" releases per se). In
some ways our rules are a lot less restrictive, and in other ways we demand
more. However we tried to make sure that stuff that we think is "ok" does not
clash with these rules, and that they aren't terribly unfair to newcomers
either.

We didn't design these rules to discriminate against newbies (or anyone else),
but instead we think that rules like this are a necessary element in the
learning process of every cracker.

Goals:
------

- Motivate people to do more quality cracks. Quantity is nothing, quality is
  all.
- More tension in the cracking scene.
- Reward skill and effort
- The best cracker should win. not the loudest, not the most annoying, not
  the most persistant.
- Getting rid of rerereleases, 100%,101%,102% versions and similar nonsense.
- Motivate crackers to release games that were never released before and make
  better versions than anyone before

And last but not least:
- Motivate people to upload more old cracks

General Rules:
--------------

- These rules are only valid for cracks (by our definition) released after
  1/8-2008. whatever was released before must only comply with the old rules.
  However, all old rules also apply to new cracks, with the following
  additions and changes:

- Definition of a crack:

 Until now a crack was loosely defined as "unauthorized modification" of a
 program. these standards extend the definition as follows:

 - A crack MUST be preceded by a crack intro, with the only exception of
   tools, which most people prefer without intros.
 - "frozen" games are NOT considered cracks.
 - The crack MUST have substantial value over the original. linking
   your intro infront of some freeware game aint cut it. We atleast expect
   decent training and packing. If a game was released before, subsequent
   releases must have substantial value over previous releases.
 - The appearance of the game must NOT be altered in any way. No changing of
   ingame texts into your groups name, no altering of the hiscore tables.
   Altered hiscore tables are acceptable if the game has an option to restore
   the original content.
 - If the game has a hiscore table, we expect a hiscore saver. Hiscore savers
   MUST be disabled when trainers are active.
 - If there are docs available (which we might check on the net) then we
   expect them to be included.
 - Cracks should be pal/ntsc fixed, unless the game itself does not allow it.
   Obviously, when the crack is pal/ntsc fixed then the intro MUST be fixed
   too. Please notice that there is a strong emphasis on "should be fixed",
   and games which are trivial to fix (such as many "oldies") MUST be fixed.
   Also notice that unlike the traditional firstrelease rules, we demand *all*
   cracks to comply with this rule, including previews and the like.
 - Ingame text MUST be translated to english, with the only exception beeing
   games which contain huge amounts of text. (such as adventures)

- Any crack added to CSDb must be a valid release according to these rules.
  Whatever else will get deleted. "Oldschoolers" please notice that we do
  NOT make a difference between "full" releases and "previews" etc as it is/
  was commonly done in the firstrelease scene. We think that these days every
  release deserves the same effort, preview or not.

- So called "recracking" is generally and strongly frowned upon. For this
  reason each crack should somehow tell what kind of original was used (tape/
  disk/cart ...). Recracks are only accepted if no original is available and
  all existing cracks have bugs. (If in doubt, search harder for an original
  or crack a different game.) In this case the release MUST state what other
  crack was used. Credit where credit is due!
  Notice that this rule was the most objected one by our reviewers, who most
  of the time would like to see recracks completely banned. However, we don't
  want to do that (yet) - but to stress it again: recracks should be a rare
  exception!

- If a crack is accepted at atleast two of the following sites, which have
  been "official" release sites for atleast a decade, it will always be
  counted as a valid release on CSDb:

   The Digital Dungeon - ftp://ftp.scs-trc.net/pub/c64/
   Banana Republic - ftp://ftp.elysium.pl/
   Antidote - antidote.hopto.org:23 (telnet BBS)

  Note that uploading alone doesn't count, the release must be accepted by
  the particular site and be moved out of incoming for everyone to download.
  You also must point out yourself wether a release is available at the above
  mentioned sites since the CSDb staff will not actively (or regularly) check
  them.

  This is an intentional "loophole" in these rules. if those sites accept
  a release, then we must consider it beeing a valid scene release, no matter
  what our own rules say. (Keep in mind though, that those sites by themselves
  have rather strict rules on what they accept and what not)

- Games made with game makers such as SEUCK (Shoot Em Up Construction Kit),
  GAC (Graphic Adventure Creator), RDK (Racing Destruction Kit), etc. are NOT
  considered valid releases.

- Games that are written primarily in basic will NOT be considered a valid
  release, unless significant effort has been put into it, such as translating
  huge amount of text. Classic commercial titles such as "pirates!" are an
  exception to this rule, while most magazine type-ins are not. if in doubt,
  WE decide.

- Generally every group can only release ONE version of a certain release.
  further updates are prohibited and will get deleted (see exceptions below).

The 48 hour rule:
-----------------

- After releasing a game, group A has 48 hours to release a possibly updated
  and/or fixed version of the same release, and during this period is also
  allowed to "silently" update its CSDb entry. Any updates after these 48h are
  prohibited and will get deleted and the original file restored. Please notice
  that this opportunity is meant for trivial fixes, such as a wrong filename, a
  typo in a scroller etc, NOT for uploading improved versions (like additional
  trainers). Also notice that if we notice that this rule will get abused we will
  remove it completely. As a countermeasure every time a "silent" update is made
  it must be stated in the comments, and explain what was changed.

- If a second group B releases a better version within 48h, it will "steal" the release
  from group A who originally added it and the previous version from group A will
  get deleted. then the clock will get restarted for group B

- If during these 48h someone is able to point out an older release of the same
  game (which must exist in CSDb, so an entry must have been created and the release
  must have been uploaded) which is better than the version that was just released,
  the new version will get deleted.

- If within 48h anyone can prove that a release is a recrack, although the release
  itself doesnt say so, the release in question will get deleted.

- If group C releases an even better version AFTER the 48h expired, it will NOT
  "steal" the previous release, and both versions will stay.

How we judge if a release is "better" than another:
---------------------------------------------------

- Onefiling. We expect cracks to be one in one file if it is possible.
- Size. Good packing is expected (that includes levelpacking multiload releases)
- Generally releases should work on a stock C64 with 1541 drive, everything else
  is a bonus.
- The size of the main file should not exceed 202 blocks so it can be loaded
  by stock kernal load.
- Filecopyable. track/sector loaders should be replaced so the crack can be
  copied file by file.
- Amount of trainers. notice that so called "double trainers" will make your
  release worse, not better. Every double trainer will DECREASE the number of
  trainers we will count for your release. (so a release with "+2" as in "in-
  finite lives player 1" and "infinite lives player 2" will not only be counted
  as "+1", but instead be counted as if it had no trainer at all)
- Translation to english. Translating lots of text is a huge effort which will
  always earn you a big plus. If there is only a little bit of text, such as a
  score display and "get ready" stuff, then a translation is EXPECTED.
- Bugs. Bugs that exist in the crack but which do not exist in the original
  will earn you a big minus. On the other hand, fixing bugs which are in the
  original will give you a plus.
- Releases made from a real original will always count more than recracks,
  obviously.

Strategy Guide:
---------------

For those who are new to the cracking scene, here are some hints:

- Before you start with a crack, check what other versions of that game
  exist. Don't crack it if you dont think you can make it better than all the
  old versions. Do not rely only on CSDb for reference wether something has
  already been released. There are a lot of games which have been released
  that are not added to CSDb yet. Some sites you may want to check are:

   The Digital Dungeon - ftp://ftp.scs-trc.net/pub/c64/
   Banana Republic - ftp://ftp.elysium.pl/
   Antidote - antidote.hopto.org:23 (telnet BBS)
   Gamebase - http://www.gamebase64.com
   C64Games - http://c64games.de
   The List - http://www.atlantis-prophecy.org/onslaught/thelist.html

- Use the original game (many are available for download on the net).
  Recracking is generally frowned upon. Generally only consider extending or
  fixing someone else's crack when no original can be found and existing cracks
  all have flaws. And even then, maybe still find another game.
- Spend time on testing your release. Typically that would be considerably
  more time that it took to make the actual crack. You are in no hurry, so
  make sure everything works correctly.
- If you are into competition, wait until some group releases a game, and
  then try to make a better version.
- If you want to make a first release, try to make it the best version ever,
  so no other group will be able to beat you in 48h

Final Words:
------------

These rules will get updated and finetuned over time, especially when we see
that someone is trying to exploit them and find loopholes. Please realise that
WE have the final word, and that WE decide wether a certain exception on the
current rules will be made or not. if in doubt, choose a different release
platform than CSDb.

Last not least, nitpicking on the wording and interpretation is not tolerated.
If in doubt, ask and we might update the rules to make more clear what we
mean.
 
... 131 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....
 
2008-08-04 06:30
CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048
Quote: A release site? On a release site bad stuff gets nuked, but the information about is still available.
I always thought CSDb wants to preserve history and is a site dedicated to gathering as much information as possible about the productions, the groups, the sceners and the events in the Commodore 64 scene.
I sure can live with that rules (at least it increases quality I hope) as I'm not really into c64 'cracking scene' anymore, but seems to me contrary... are there any rules coming up for demos, musix, tools as well?


This way there is a bigger chance of raising of the quality standard of what get's actually produced.

CSDB is not "social network" where anyone can register and add his crap into the database and everyone get's his small part of fame. Where the loudest group gets the biggest atention etc. etc. Scene was always build on competition. And every competition needs some standards and rules.

CSDB is not the primary place of social interaction of the sceners. Because scene is not CSDB and CSDB is not the scene. There are parties, individual communication etc. CSDB is most actively mirroring activities of a part of the scene active on internet but there are many sceners who aren't actively participating in the "society" that has formed around it. Those "invisible" people are, however, producing stuff that considerably increases quality of CSDB. Their stuff gets into the database because it get's spread (added by someone else), because it is good ;-). Most of the sceners demand quality. Noone is interested about constant flood of low quality crap from obvious suspects. Some "producers" got it and try harder.

As for demos, music and tools, there already is some kind of (I would say) selective approach* to that stuff (although not that prominent) and if it starts to get out of hand the way as it happened with cracking scene I'm sure we'll handle it the similar way. I'm also pretty much sure that every sane demoscener will praise us for that ;-)))

*some stuff is not accepted... (e.g. most blatant cases of wiring)
2008-08-04 06:46
Marauder/GSS
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 224
yes, I like the idea of having some standards about crackz which sure will raise the quality of stuff getting released nowadays. What I don't like is the idea that stuff gets deleted, instead of *nuked* (and readonly?).
The more nuked releases a group have it shows how really lame they are. If stuff gets deleted you really can't compare the "competition" and showes a biased view on scene/history imo...
hope you understand what I mean... (c; (excuse me I'm poor German, hehe)
2008-08-04 06:59
CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048
I understand you. Nice (evil ;) idea (similar to "related news" at c64.sk), but I don't think Perff would agree with this approach of humiliating of csdb users. ;-). I think whether it is your idea, or current "release standards", the message will be sent to the right recipient. The producer.
2008-08-04 07:30
Marauder/GSS
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 224
ofcourse it was not really my idea as it's common in the pc cracking/releasing scene that bad stuff gets nuked (but the info about not deleted). (c; Ofcourse *nuked* releases won't get really spread on good site-dumps as well, that's why I came up with readonly and/or maybe not downloadable entries... at least you still could compare the race and don't have a biased view (and also have preserved history as the bad release won't get lost).
Just have look at all those nfo-sites (like NFOrce, GNS etc.) for example - the informations about nuked releases, those with the "radioactivity symbols", are also available with a nuke-reason. That way a CSDb-entry could be compared to a release nfo-file imo.
2008-08-04 09:33
Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044
Quote: the selfmade gods of csdb (not the scene) have spoken!
i can't read anymore this bullshit about scene rules done by the the jazzcat clan..
you make only a csdb rule .. not more!!!!
and bye!



Jazzcat clan? strange term, but nevermind...

The whole reason I was approached for my input on this is because I've been the editor of "The List", covering 'first releases' in the scene and documenting the quality 'oldie cracks'. My references include The Pulse, Domination and Vandalism News covering 1993 to present times (for The List), so my input is easily justified.

Regarding my stance on retard-releases, I'm all for some form of moderation, and this is the way to go about it. The cracking scene has always had some form of rules (one way or another) and this is no different.
Edit: and these are rules devised by a diverse bunch of people, so back off with this clan nonsense.


The benefit: the user - quality cracks is of significant value, especially on those games that were always bugged or just weren't done properly. Crackers should show their pride and show how big their balls are...

The retarded factor is an endangered species now, step up or bugger off.
2008-08-04 10:58
Marauder/GSS
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 224
Quote: I understand you. Nice (evil ;) idea (similar to "related news" at c64.sk), but I don't think Perff would agree with this approach of humiliating of csdb users. ;-). I think whether it is your idea, or current "release standards", the message will be sent to the right recipient. The producer.

"My idea" is just a combination of both as nuking is always based on some release standards/rules (and imo better than just deleting, like I've already stated my opinion about previously)... (c; On the pc cracking/releasing scene there always exist some release standards/rules for any type of release (game, app, movie, mp3 etc.). So why not for the 64?! fine with me... =)

Anyway, it's up to Perff and others, I can live with the decision, but just my 2 cents about... (c;
2008-08-04 14:10
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11352
Quote:

"My idea" is just a combination of both as nuking is always based on some release standards/rules (and imo better than just deleting, like I've already stated my opinion about previously)... (c;


i dont know if that would solve anything.... from my experience when stuff gets nuked with reason on some pc site, its mostly to prevent others to upload the crap again - it isnt really ment to preserve the information about that certain release. we don't really need such mechanism though (since so few releases come out).

Quote:

On the pc cracking/releasing scene there always exist some release standards/rules for any type of release (game, app, movie, mp3 etc.). So why not for the 64?! fine with me... =)


on ANY cracking/releasing scene there were and are such standards, also on the c64. every active scene FTP site had and still has such standards, and so did and do the boards.

that said, we don't even really consider csdb a release site - one of the ideas was to completely forbid adding releases which aren't atleast <some reasonable time> old and require people to release stuff on real release sites instead of csdb (such as those mentioned in the above rules). however, since we don't want that, we needed to adjust to the fact that people are (ab)using csdb as a release site (in many cases, the _primary_ and _only_ one, which is kindof sad), and so we needed those rules (like any other release site).

if you dont like those rules, choose another site.
2008-08-04 14:41
The Ignorance

Registered: Apr 2006
Posts: 85
I don't see the sense of "nuking" releases, for me that's PC scene and not C64 scene.

Regarding the rules:

95% are the official release rules used from 1989 on.
5 % are the points about "releasing a better version" and so on. Which should be "normal".

So I don't see anything special the "scene gods" decided in 2008, THE SCENE did that already 20 years ago, only certain
people seem to have forgotten or ignore that.

And btw. there is even a rule how to name a release, since 20 years.

So improve yourself and start to learn, 2 years are long enough to do.
2008-08-04 14:46
Marauder/GSS
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 224
Quote:

...
if you dont like those rules, choose another site.


*LOL* Groepaz, where did I say I don't like that rules. Please read my other posts, all I said (or try to say) is that I don't like the idea of deleting, as you can't really compare the race (if there is really one) and have a biased view on the scene/history.

Like I thought CSDb is about preserving C64 history... but it seems I got wrong. So I've just learned another thing. =)

anyway, do what you have to do... I can live with that! (c;

2008-08-04 14:54
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11352
Quote:

*LOL* Groepaz, where did I say I don't like that rules. Please read my other posts,


yes i got that. it was more of a general statement :)

Quote:

Like I thought CSDb is about preserving C64 history... but it seems I got wrong. So I've just learned another thing. =)


csdb is about preserving the history of the c64 SCENE. it is _not_ (knowing some people i repeat: _NOT_) about preserving the history of all and everything c64 related.

and obviously when we don't want to preserve everything, we have to define what we want and what we dont want.

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