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2010-07-17 16:03

STE'86

Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274

a plea from an old schooler

please dont use modified PAL emulating screenshots for pictures on this site.

people may want to use this site to download unmodified c64 art in gif or png format with pure pixel definition.

if they want to see the stuff in highly debatable pal emulation mode people can download the PRG files and view them in that mode on an emulator.

Thanks
Steve

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2010-07-19 12:20

enthusi

Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675

additionally the color perception differs dramatically from person to person (and in a way, from gender to gender)...

@groepaz: you heard it!
Add all sorts of dichromacy to the PAL emu!

And to quote Newton on the very subject: "rays are not colored".

2010-07-19 12:50

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11164

Quote:

That's not what we suggested and you know it ;)
We asked for "clean" images.

you asked for introducing a standard for screenshots. and the only way this would actually make sense, and allow various automatic processing steps, would be to not only agree on a common format and size, but also a common palette. and, beeing the de facto standard, this would be the pepto palette.

Quote:

Palette doesn't matter apart from to the owner/creator of the image who would like you to see it as he does. They should get to decide if it looks right, or would you recolour some classical art because you're used to seeing it only on TV and not in a gallery so that's how it looks to you?

there is a big difference between a drawing and a c64 picture. *every* time you watch a c64 picture you "recolor" it. there is no way to watch it exactly the same way as the artist did except watching it on the artists setup. and one important aspect of c64 art actually is exactly that. just like sid tunes must be "designed" to sound ok on everyones chips, c64 pictures shouldnt be designed for someones specific setup. if i load up some picture on my setup and look at it, what i see is always "right" - even if the absolute colors may be totally different from what the original artist used.

2010-07-19 13:10

JCB
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241

How can there be a standard palette when it doesn't match what the artist saw? You're now saying you know better than them.

As for things being different on each machine, of course that's true, but that just means its more important "to the artist" to be able to use the palette they think matches the best.

With SIDs there's even a CD of Galways music as HE heard it from his machine. It's just an inconvenience to try to make music either without filters etc so it doesn't screw up but I'd imagine the musicians would prefer if it was possible for everyone to hear it as they did and to Ste the palette he's currently using on his Gifs is as close to what he saw as possible. You disagree, fine but it's not your art to screw with..

2010-07-19 13:18

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11164

Quote:

As for things being different on each machine, of course that's true, but that just means its more important "to the artist" to be able to use the palette they think matches the best.

quite the contrary. as said before, csdb is not an art gallery. screenshots are just that, screenshots.

i am with enthusi here, we should display them scaled 4:1 and in pink. should be enough to decide wether the prg is worth checking out.

what you demand equals the "need" to add an mp3 recording from the original artists machine to each sid entry. vaguely interesting maybe, but practically irrelevant - atleast here.

2010-07-19 13:23

JCB
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241

Quote: Quote:
As for things being different on each machine, of course that's true, but that just means its more important "to the artist" to be able to use the palette they think matches the best.

quite the contrary. as said before, csdb is not an art gallery. screenshots are just that, screenshots.

i am with enthusi here, we should display them scaled 4:1 and in pink. should be enough to decide wether the prg is worth checking out.

what you demand equals the "need" to add an mp3 recording from the original artists machine to each sid entry. vaguely interesting maybe, but practically irrelevant - atleast here.

Hold on a minute, you're the one who just said you would apply this standard to all images IF you turned it into more of an image repository/database.

As far as the SID stuff "needing" to be done, it would be nice, just as it would be nice if artists could upload images in the colour..... ohhh wait!

2010-07-19 18:28

Count Zero

Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1834

Quote: Hold on a minute, you're the one who just said you would apply this standard to all images IF you turned it into more of an image repository/database.

As far as the SID stuff "needing" to be done, it would be nice, just as it would be nice if artists could upload images in the colour..... ohhh wait!

Erm, no grp did not - he was merely pointing out what consequences and prerequisites are required for actually achieving a proper "gallery".

His first line on the match was: "CSDb is not an art repository".

All of groepaz' explanations are just fine - just get it straight, JCB.

2010-07-19 18:37

JCB
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241

Sorry dude, you make no sense in the context of recent posts. He specifically said earlier in the thread that IF in the unlikely event a gallery was started... You can go read it if you want, then he turns it round to somehow be demands made by US about standards? wrong. We've made no demands apart from let artists upload images how THEY want them to look. Hell, it wasn't even a demand but a request.

Also, that word you used, match, just confirms what I think that some people see this type of shit as an argument to win and will twist things people say so they have something to attack.

2010-07-19 21:13

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5034

CSDB is democratic, so Groepaz is right when saying people should decide about standards. There's no twisting here, you're seem to be bringing too much fighting spirit from AA. It's all cool, we're just having a discussion :)

you should also realise Groepaz is talking with the database integrity, maintainability etc. foremost in mind.

ps: wow, I'm defending Groppie, strange things can happen.

ps2: and some nitpicking: "As for things being different on each machine, of course that's true, but that just means its more important "to the artist" to be able to use the palette they think matches the best." as artists had no way of adjusting people's TV sets back in the 80s, why should they be able to do it today?

2010-07-19 21:49

JCB
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241

Quoting Oswald

CSDB is democratic, so Groepaz is right when saying people should decide about standards. There's no twisting here, you're seem to be bringing too much fighting spirit from AA. It's all cool, we're just having a discussion :)

Really? I'm not seeing much democracy here, a lot of this is the way we do it, though. Other people apart from me have expressed the need for "clean" screenshots in this thread as well. This is one of the things I'm getting pissed about, we all know 95% of the stuff IS like that anyway, it's all been resolved, it's a moot point but people keep bringing it up.

As for bringing the fighting spirit, it's not that at all, it's a defence against people continually dragging the thread back into an argument territory every time it's all been agreed. Constantly saying "you demanded" when we haven't or making out we've suggested things we haven't is just causing more argument. You know me by now, I'm quite happy to admit when I'm wrong but I won't let someone snipe at me for no reason and let it lie, so if people keep sniping I'll keep defending, there's no "fight" to it as far as I'm concerned. Once again our requests were agreed to by tlr a loooong way back and anything anyone else thinks we were after is just coming from their own head ;)

Quoting Oswald

you should also realise Groepaz is talking with the database integrity, maintainability etc. foremost in mind.

Did you not read all my posts? That was one of the reasons I suggested it. The only problem I could forsee in a "gallery" database or the database as it is atm is if there were loads of PAL filtered images that needed to be re-pal'd when there's a new emulation. Are you going to go through all the PRG/D64, rip the bitmaps to re-filter the images? How could letting an artist upload an image with their own palette effect it?

Quoting Oswald

ps: wow, I'm defending Groppie, strange things can happen.

ps2: and some nitpicking: "As for things being different on each machine, of course that's true, but that just means its more important "to the artist" to be able to use the palette they think matches the best." as artists had no way of adjusting people's TV sets back in the 80s, why should they be able to do it today?

That just sounds like a lack of respect for what the artist produced? As I said earlier, would you recolour the mona lisa for example because the image you have in your head is that of only seeing it on TV and never in real life? There should be (especially if the site gets classed as a repository for images) some way to see the image AS INTENDED, anyone wanting to see it with another palette or how they saw it on their machine can download the PRG and have whatever palette and whatever pal emulation setting they want. To do it the other way round would require some kind of ini file or instructions on what to set the emulator to. It's also fine for people to upload images with PAL emulation when I don't think that looks quite right but then there's nothing I can do about it? can't reverse engineer the image. I'd just have to download the prg to see it how I wanted.... ohh :)

2010-07-19 22:36

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11164

"How could letting an artist upload an image with their own palette effect it?"

to be able to automatically process the images your converter *must* know either

a) the exact palette order (eg, 16 colors in original c64 palette order) or
b) the exact colors in the palette (eg, the pepto palette)

for any screenshot standard that makes sense, one of the two *must* be enforced, or you simply can not process those images automatically in any useful way.

and since a) is completely unrealistic in the context of a website like this (eg the palette order in a png/gif depends pretty much on the software/library that creates it) and would be super annoying for everyone involved in the process it can only be b)

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