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2004-08-05 07:54

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086

LCP 2004 demos

What do you think ?

I'm sad, as there were no real coder's demos.

Afrika - we 've seen all these effects 10 years before

Triad,Flt - The design / theme of the demos were not good
enough to excuse for no spectacular codings.

Effluvium - the code was not good enough to excuse no gfx/design/whatever.

are there really no coders out there, that can come up with new stuff ?

... 131 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2004-08-08 20:01

_V_
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124

*Hi5s TDJ*
Hey man, you weren't so bad yourself =)

2004-08-08 20:21

Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 942

Quote: It's a good thing you don't have a car then ..

2004-08-08 21:03

Sat
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 12

_V_:

A well crafted post deserves an answer, so I thought I might as well spend my hangover reflecting on my opinion about demos and this thread in general.

I would like to admit I was being rude with some of my remarks here too and I apologize for that. My only excuse is that I truly love old style demos where it was code for codes sake and I guess some of my sadness with the loss of focus from effects to art finally exploded.

My opinion is probably based on the fact that I started to code because of the challenge and to have a good time doing it. I mainly did things to see if I could do them and because other demos inspired me to figure out new things about our wonderful little machine.

If you look at it historically its something like this:

Demos used to be about using the hardware and showing what tricks you could do. I guess I often see them as friendly code competition where one awesome trick inspired new (code) ideas and presented a challenge for other coders. They where coded by programmers for programmers (more or less). It was simple days where a part was constructed by a single guy with a brilliant idea and he did it because he liked it, and yes music and graphics where often added as an afterthought. Back then the coder spend 98% of the time doing what he thought was fun, namely working on the effect/trick he just came up with. Things produced back then where mostly technological demos.

Later some brilliant guy figured out how to do trackmos (something most probably thought impossible back then), and it led to the development of some truly awesome productions. But it had the side-effect that it made everything take longer to develop as you now where required to do extra code to fade gracefully from one effect to another. This often resulted in the coder having to spend 75% of the time on the tricks and the last 25% on the transitions. As the transitions most often are extremely simple to program they often didnt present a challenge and meant you would have to spend a lot of time doing boring things just to be able to release it.

As productions grew and design got to be a bigger and bigger requirement you often ended up having to spend crazy amounts of time managing the production instead of doing what you loved which in the end made it felt more like work than a fun hobby.

I guess thats why I can enjoy a demo with little design but pure code porn more than those without because I know the guy had fun doing it which I would have had too.

My love truly lies with the effects and not so much with the design part, and the story/concept demos, often dont contain any worth talking about. Which mean that the primary thing I enjoy in a demo is missing. I guess you would feel the same way if the demo contained no graphics or music worth talking about?

Now a comment on a few of the things you mentioned:

> I think the coder still matters. Perhaps PC demo making is
> a lot more flexible, what with
> the amount of available software (all developed by
> graphicians, of course), but in the end,
> someone has to do the timing and create a show worth
> watching. Someone has to debug,
> someone has to optimize. No, not the compiler.

Well there need to be a programmer but how good he is doesnt matter as much as it used to.
This is related to the power of the pc cpu and gpus being used these days. To be fair you of cause need some experience to get it to run on all those different configurations and driver bugs.
PCs doesnt really seem to have any limit these days, and that of cause removes the need for excellent coders, at least I think its very rare you will find a pc demo programmer spending six months to just figure out how to do one routine like Boogaloo and Exilon did for their vector routine in the last tractor 3.
This is not to say that PC programmers are bad in any way, I just think they are not the determining factor anymore (not even close) Its not all up to the artist and musicians to make or break the demo. A programmer will often have to find a platform with limits to be able to express himself in his art these days.

> Oh, so my input is just eye candy? Which gives it the last
> 5%? Ideas, images, music are only a
> negligeable, shallow, superficial fragment of a demo? For
> the record, this percentage was 'kindly'
> modified into a 'much more realistic' 25% later on. Thank
>you, we feel much more appreciated
> now.

What I guess I was trying to say with the rough percentage scheme was that I focus on the effects and super design, music and graphics alone would not make it a good demo in my book. It should be clear to anyone that awful music and graphics can ruin even the best effects.
Its not meant as anything negative, more like a statement that if there are no effects worth looking at then I probably wouldnt enjoy it or rate it high, thats the bad thing about only having one value to describe a demo. A few numbers would be better and demoes should be rated inside their category.

> This is true, but don't you think that it's a bit harsh to
> ask everyone to be an expert on everything?
> Must a PC scener know all the intricacies of a c64, sid
> music or graphics modes? The other way
> around, must we know all the intricacies of the Pentium
> architecture, sound and video cards or the > DirectX
> libraries? Must we all know exactly how recursive
> ray-tracing, vector engines, quadtree > partitioning and
> fractal imaging works? Is this the only way to appreciate
> a demo?

What triggered my outburst was somebody complaining about the record demos (tech demos) and how much better the art demos are. Personally I love tech demos as they tend to contain the effects I want to watch, and I find it sad that people put them in the same category and compare them as if they where the same thing, when the target audience is clearly so different.

When you sum it up it I guess your right that I have a hard time coming to terms with what the demos has evolved into. Its like I lost my creative playground, but luckily a few excellent techmos showed me there is still room for such around here.

That was a long one, and my head is still pounding so I think its time to a repair beer. Bbl.

2004-08-08 22:10

TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879

Sat, nice to see you can post something intelligent without having to 'accidentely' insult people. One thing though: I don't think anybody here said that art demos are better than technical demos.

As for the voting system: I agree it doesn't work, but I don't think that having to vote for the seperate ingredients and for seperate styles will be the answer. Instead I think that using a (limited) list of fave demos per person will do a much better trick, where every demo on that list will get the same amount of points.

Because, if you think about it, it's not about what is the best demo, it's about what is the most favourite demo. And in that aspect, 'comparing' tech & art demos should be no problem at all.

2004-08-08 22:24

JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014

Just to clarify my previous post:

http://penis.istheshit.net/

Best regards, JackAsser - Who thinks the discussion finally has become a bit more mature... :D

2004-08-09 00:47

_V_
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124

Sat__I would like to admit I was being rude with some of my remarks here too and I apologize for that.__

Thank you for honouring me with an answer. Assuming that you are not the person who regrets his actions after a hangover, I'll accept your apologies and retract my claws, even though some of the later parts of this response might seem to dictate otherwise. When you see smileys, I'm just having fun. When not, I'll probably have a reason for it.

__My only excuse is that I truly love old style demos where it was code for codes sake and I guess some of my sadness with the loss of focus from effects to art finally exploded.__

I know one explodes from time to time, but that shouldn't be an excuse to advocate separatism on repeated counts.

__My opinion is probably based on the fact that I started to code because of the challenge and to have a good time doing it. I mainly did things to see if I could do them and because other demos inspired me to figure out new things about our wonderful little machine.__

That sounds like you had a lot of fun indeed. Perhaps as much fun as me and any other pixelling c64 graphician discovering both the limitation and the freedom of the VIC chip? Perhaps as much fun as me and every other c64 musician trying to milk every last drop out of those 3 voices to create the SID's unique sound?

I followed the 'coder wars' as well at the time, and with great interest: who could get the most DYCPs, who would be the first to create a FLI DYPP, etc. Good times. But, since my main passion lied elsewhere, the main pull was towards other things: "Wow, look at the style of that logo! Great fill effect! How did he get those colours? Damn you, *insert Vibrant/Maniac/Scortia here*, for being so ungodly good! How *do* you get all that jazz out of the machine?".

Bottom line: such an experience is worth as much as yours. Don't offend me or others by trivialising it, or we *will* return the favour. =]

__If you look at it historically its something like this: <CUT>
It was simple days where a part was constructed by a single guy with a brilliant idea and he did it because he liked it, and yes music and graphics where often added as an afterthought.
<CUT>
I guess thats why I can enjoy a demo with little design but pure code porn more than those without because I know the guy had fun doing it which I would have had too.__

You might view it as this and it might indeed seem like it happened that way, but there still is something wrong if you say 'afterthought'. Because if graphics and music are just an afterthought, then you don't NEED graphics and music -

...OH!

I just realised something... you *are* right! Theoretically, graphics and music are only an afterthought. Pure code truly doesn't need graphics or music! All you need is the c64, power and a storage medium (optional).

A PURE coder enters code blindly on the keyboard while the power is on, because she knows the routines by heart and is HARDCORE. She needs all the processing time and memory she can get to allow the code to run optimally, so it's great that nothing is wasted on display and/or player routines. Unless, of course, the code is about display and/or player routines.

The PURE coder then shows her BADASS routines by running the code while other HARDCORE coders stand gathered around the c64. They will look at the c64 case with great interest while they are being explained about the functioning of the routine, about the phenomenal processes going on inside the c64's chips and why adding a single ROL to the routine at zeropage has increased the efficiency of the routine by 15%.

The other PURE coders will then praise and approve of her code to no end, stare at the c64 case some more, their brains in total awe at how the transistors inside the chips must be changing. Someone will mention the TAINTED coders and how they actually need a MONITOR with - the insolence - SPEAKERS to show their routines. They will scoff at their misguided colleagues who dare to ask the UNCLEAN to paint them a logo and make them a tune. Then, they will dance circles around the partridge in the pear tree and climax multiple times together until dawn breaks.

................

Okay, as an 'afterthought', I just couldn't resist ^o^. Of course this was a reductio ad absurdum. I basically want to say that Code indeed doesn't need Graphics and/or Music in theory (pure), but Code indeed does need Graphics and/or Music in practice (tainted).

As far as I can tell, graphics and/or Music are essential to Code, and vice versa. It's a mutually dependent symbiosis, and saying one or two of them are not important makes them all unimportant.

"But, I only need a few sprites to show my routine! It's really just an afterthought!"

"But, I only need a tiny piece of code to show my picture or play my music! It's really just an afterthought!"

So historically speaking, I don't really see a difference between then and now, except that all elements of a c64 demo have evolved in such a way that the symbiosis between graphics, music and coding has become much more apparent, which pushed forward things like concept and flow.

These 'new things' are now being explored while leaving room and ample respect for everyone who wants to focus on technical parts. Don't quite see what's wrong with that.

__My love truly lies with the effects and not so much with the design part, and the story/concept demos, often dont contain any worth talking about. Which mean that the primary thing I enjoy in a demo is missing. I guess you would feel the same way if the demo contained no graphics or music worth talking about?__

I think that as experience increases, so will the amount of good demos which are a combination of 'artsy fartsy' and 'very technical'. You'll need to give the explorers the time and room to innovate (and not banish them to another platform).

And as to the last question, I'd say 'depends if the used graphics and music serve their purpose and are, more or less, the best they can get'.

__Well there need to be a programmer but how good he is doesnt matter as much as it used to. <CUT A WHOLE LOT OF 'BLAHA' WHICH I WOULD *REALLY* NOT FORWARD TO THE PC SCENE>__
I could say a lot of things, that PC coders still need to figure out how all these libraries work, what they mean, that they need considerate math skills to understand what they are doing, to create something new and much more, but I won't.

This because I am too superficial as far as PC coding is concerned. But, if you want, I'd be more than happy to ask people like Picard, Fiver2, BoyC, Gargaj et al. for their objective opinion on your insightful stance about PC coding.

...you know, Farbrausch and Conspiracy have made their development tools public. Does this mean the end of the PC scene? Hells yeah! It's not like these groups already made better development tools with more functionality and effects.

__What I guess I was trying to say with the rough percentage scheme was that I focus on the effects and super design, music and graphics alone would not make it a good demo in my book. It should be clear to anyone that awful music and graphics can ruin even the best effects.
Its not meant as anything negative, more like a statement that if there are no effects worth looking at then I probably wouldnt enjoy it or rate it high, thats the bad thing about only having one value to describe a demo. <CUT the similar rest>__

Okay, no problems there. Your opinion, your value system, and as long as us artsy-fartsies (why am I suddenly thinking about Willy Wonka? =) don't have to take a hike to another scene, that's fine by me.

JackAsser__Who thinks the discussion finally has become a bit more mature... :D__
*crazy late-night mode: ACTIVE* Aww HEEEELLLLLSSSS YEAH! I just discovered that PURE scene pr0n is teh sh17!

Now excuse me while I go naturalise myself and dance with the other creative Swedish sceners around the May tree after mutually expressing awe over our graphical prowess in the theoretical art of creating images. We will probably climax together many, many times. JackAsser, I'm comming right now!!111 LOL XD

2004-08-09 01:24

Dane
Account closed

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421

Good points, V. Don't ignore the synergy effects in a demo. Inserting random noise into D418 and just showing junk on your X-fli screen doesn't impress too many people. (believe me, I've tried)

2004-08-09 03:16

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048

Hollowman: I agree with your point, but still I think that general scene news promo is useful. It only costs registration in the mentioned sites and some time for posting of the standard news ("there was that and that C64 party, get the releases here"). Even when if 1% of the people will click on the download link, or visit the announced site with stuff, and eventually see the releases (on emu). If if will be just one person from 100, it's still more than zero publicity.

I would like to add, that since friday the ammount of text this discussion grew enormously but I was curious and decided to read everything even when it was quite painful at times, especially thanx to various invwentive ways of quoting ;-). I quite enjoyed some points.

Reading all those arguments I recalled how I learn, during those 5 years of "accidental" experiences at multiplattform party, how other sceners from 8-bit plattforms (that means Atari and ZX Spectrum) look upon C64 demo productions (presented in demoshows) but it brought reflections to my mind which probably aren't good to discuss in this thread so maybe somewhere else...

2004-08-09 04:24

Luca

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 178

CreaMD: as plus/4 user, I'm very interested in your ideas about "other scene's users", thinking about, e.g., "Heartfixer" presented at Forever party...

2004-08-09 05:14

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048

Quote: CreaMD: as plus/4 user, I'm very interested in your ideas about "other scene's users", thinking about, e.g., "Heartfixer" presented at Forever party...

Demo was shown in wild compo section and although it was only presented on TV screen the party people surounded the TV and seemed quite surprised. Nobody expected anything like this to be presented. IMO, if Hearthfixer was a C64 demo it would get very high in any demo compo at any party it would compete.