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2023-12-05 11:22

hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4612

Release id #237341 : Future Ninja

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 5 December 2023
Frostbyte: I think it was that it ended up as #3 in a compo and also was the #1 pic on csdb for a while. People also cheered for it on fb etc. ”Amazing”, ”outstanding”, etc. Then artists react I’d say.

User Comment
Submitted by Moloch [PM] on 5 December 2023
10!

User Comment
Submitted by Frostbyte [PM] on 5 December 2023
Whereas I think it is great that this picture finally sparked a serious conversation about possibly clarifying the scene's unwritten rulebook what comes to declaring use of sources and converters and providing workstages, I do get Oswald's point, D-Mage may just not know about the unwritten rules.

What I find a bit strange is that THIS particular image sparked the conversation, as there are many well established, praised talents in the scene who so blatantly obviously use online sources for their images as well as very heavily rely on advanced converters, and never provide workstages, but with them most of the scene remains silent. Maybe it's about which group you're in? ;)

User Comment
Submitted by Bob [PM] on 5 December 2023
I am not an artist.. but I can't help it.. I like this image.. and it would do great in a demo too...

User Comment
Submitted by rexbeng [PM] on 5 December 2023
Most artists wouldn't care about AI; it's just another tool added to the plethora of tools that over the years made the random pics we are used to look at, be less and less 'art'. If it's just 'joes' you're after with your creations, say on youtube, why spent hundreds of hours to make a video about something specific that interests you, when a random video with cats will generate a hell of a lot more appreciation and views and need just a fraction of the time to make? Would an artist opt to make videos with more of the same cats for Youtube?

Work stages is a joke when the talk is about digital images, I trust anybody can understand that. :)

User Comment
Submitted by Carrion [PM] on 5 December 2023
6 months ago at X'23 I was giving the presentation about my process of creating C64 images. I showed how I use Photoshop to cut and paste pieces of images (found on Internet) to produce some quick results that I later take to Timanthes for long process of detailing. Also a big part of my presentation was my thoughts on using AI and how it is a huge temptation on using it as a shortcut to create C64 gfx, and how I feel tempted to use it (and I probably will).
What I stated back then was that every time I use AI I will inform about it in release notes or CSDB comments. I also declared that I will include workstages and/or the source .psd files and references if used.

The feedback after my presentation was very good and together with few pixel-artists we had really interesting conversation after it.
And... 6 months later... nothing happened.

Partially my fault because a) I wasn't that active this year, b) the images I created for CD demos haven't used AI and but...
c) seams to me that majority of people don't really care about AI and workstages and source files.
Or do they? Do you care?

So... IMO this conversation we have here is a great opportunity to maybe start a new "tradition" to share the references, AI prompts/models used, .psd files, workstages etc to make it fully transparent. I also strongly believe that this will be also a great way to share knowledge, learn, and have even more fun.
What you say? Who's with me?

One more thing regarding this and similar converted pics. It worries me same way as Hein, The Sarge, and others already said, but hey, let people do what gives them fun of using C64. Is it converting, pixeling, wireing. Scene will judge anyway.

User Comment
Submitted by 4gentE [PM] on 5 December 2023
Perhaps y'all remember what I was saying here when I was told I was being a drama queen.
https://csdb.dk/forums/?roomid=12&topicid=158776&showallposts=1
Just sayin...

User Comment
Submitted by Wile Coyote [PM] on 5 December 2023
@The Sarge 'Maybe he did all by himself?'

Lol! ..absolutely not.

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 5 December 2023
For me it’s about honesty. Do what you like, AI or not, but when you are competing in a compo: hell no. It’s also obvious to me that most joes (Sorry Joe) can’t tell a convert from original work, which must be frustrating for most artists.

Using converted AI instead of converting a googled pic also makes the source impossible to find, which adds to the frustration. Even work stages could be forged ofc, working backwards. I am sure that already happened somewhere. It’s sad all of it.

User Comment
Submitted by The Sarge [PM] on 5 December 2023
I think it would be great if D-Mage could step in and add to the conversation. That would maybe stop the speculation of how this was made. Maybe he did all by himself? But until he doesn’t we will not know.

Looking at the image it’s obvious for me it’s converted. You see it in the mathematical dithering that is all over the image. For some reason the author decided to enhance the eyebrows so those are most surely hand pixeled but the rest of the image is probably not.
IF D-mage made this image from scratch by himself, ie painted the original on another medium and then used a converter to make it appear on the C64 then it’s fine. It’s still not hand pixeled but he is the author of the art. It’s just that the conversion itself takes away a bit of the “magic” of the pixel art. And it sure is a shortcut.

And this is what it all boils down to, shortcuts.
If you use AI or someone else art then it is a major shortcut. It’s such a big shortcut that you can’t really compare this to art that is done by someone by hand, from a life long period of training the mind and hand to realise your vision and ideas. It takes a lot of effort making those hand made pixel art that people will hopefully remember and appreciate. For me it’s up to 40-50 hours per image and maybe a week or two trying to come up with an idea that I think would work. Before that its has been a life full of failed attempts. The life of an artist, being it code, music or visuals. It’s all the same. We try, we fail, we fail better. Then comes AI and converting and cuts all this down to 10 minutes of work.
Of course we get upset, sad and worried.

For me C64 art is where my cradle was and hopefully it will be with me until I die. So I hate to see it devolve into soulless AI art.

So please be careful in your judgment of images.

User Comment
Submitted by Hate Bush [PM] on 5 December 2023
if it's done by the supposed creator AND converted by AI - then finished by hand - i see no problem with this.
i don't ask if a musician tapped the tune into tracker (which would be correct, true, scene-wise and so on) or did the whole tune in DAW as MIDI and then imported into tracker of choice (which would be... spitting on those who swear by first option?)

User Comment
Submitted by Hein [PM] on 5 December 2023
I really hope AI conversions don't become the norm in graphics competitions. I can't keep up with that. :) Anyhow, as a motive this isn't that exciting either.

User Comment
Submitted by Flex [PM] on 5 December 2023
I think people are worried. It's been in the air for some time now and in general, converts / AI at this level brings up big questions about the future.
Still, myself not even being the "spokesman" on this (emotional) topic I'm after some more transparency and if there's any spit on this work, that's only there for the method and the end result being this good. This might be hard to accept and I pretty much understand from the point of true craftsmanship.

User Comment
Submitted by chatGPZ [PM] on 5 December 2023
I'd rather see a decent convert than another half-assed "hand pixelled" image.

What *really* stinks are those half-assed converts that don't even look good.

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 5 December 2023
if your work is spit on, then you wouldnt feel anything personally ?

User Comment
Submitted by Flex [PM] on 4 December 2023
@oswald, I see nothing personal here. I'm hoping this launched compo will work as an eye-opener for the scene as it seems to me now that conversion / AI business is starting to gain too much ground.
I think converting is ok but trying to make people believe something else is not.
As a multicolour picture this one is ace.

User Comment
Submitted by Oswald [PM] on 4 December 2023
this is d-mage's first pic after 30 years, probably he is not familiar with the current unwritten rules in the scene, maybe more patience would have been better instead of making laughing stock of him in the form of a compo.

... 57 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2023-12-09 11:40

TheRyk

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2084

Quoting rexbeng

Is this a discussion about the graphics branch of the C64 scene in general, or is it just about curating compo entries? ...

Actually, I don't get what this sudden wave of outcries against wired-or-not is all about - again...!
Quoting Hate Bush

we're deliberately obsolete anyway, we may as well go full stone age...

Maybe it's just about time some people pull out the stick in their a..es or remove the sand from their v.....s.

Facts are:
- Even using PC software and existing images for mere outlines/rough shapes _can_ be seen as wiring, strictly speaking - and I didn't check but wouldn't be surprised if some of the ones throwing the first stones here and at other releases ain't so free of sin as they pretend (which would be kinda ridiculous).
- Even at top 1337 parties you find gfx releases in top 5 in which it is plain to see (no expert jury with super monocles needed) that _some_ converting is involved.
- Voting by all guests will lead to crowd pleasing (competitors doing stuff which experts might frown about but average voting Joe might tend to upvote)
- Cheaply wired stuff normally even fails to impress non-experts.
- No matter if a jury / every guest or an AI (<- this would be fun :D) decides the ranking, there'll be room to whine about the results (stupid party crowd, stupid so-called experts, stupid AI, stupid world...)

All of this is old news, "A.I." doesn't make so much of an impact imho that the end of the world is near.

2023-12-09 16:00

Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206

Quote: Easy solution. Two rankings. Jury for whatever artistic merit. Audience for popular vote.

Or easier still, two categories: Pixel art and "open". Converting has always been seen as a dirty tactic, but bring it out into the open and that problem goes away, whilst everyone who'd prefer to create graphics using more traditional skills can do so separately.

2023-12-09 16:00

D-Mage

Registered: Dec 2023
Posts: 1

Hello Ninjas!

I just registered here to clarify a few things.

I left the scene exactly 30 years ago, other things became important (girls, school) but deep in my heart I've always been a Commodore fanboy. Since then I've been drawing on modern platforms when I feel like it and time permits.

Future Ninja is an unpublished drawing from years ago by me, more precisely a cropped out detail of a complete upper torso. Just an experiment to see if I can get it to appear in this retro format. I didn't know about the "unwritten rules" and I've seen clearly converted artwork in several of today's big demos.

I don't want to return to the scene, I probably won't take anyone's crown as a graphician. To be honest, looking at it from today's perspective, I have never made an appreciable drawing for C64 in my life. I hated the palette, the color restrictions, the joystick. That's why I switched to the Amiga, which gave me more freedom and mouse support. I had some better creations there I believe.

Today, I wouldn't have the patience to spend 10-20-30 hours making a drawing, pixel by pixel, like I used to do. I mostly use Procreate + iPad + Apple Pencil, which is the closest to paper or canvas and gives quick results.

I think this whole thing is not for my drawing. There have been huge tensions about the conversion and the viability of future technology in general. Future Ninja was just fuel for the fire. However, if a constructive discussion can be generated from it then it's totally worth it.

2023-12-09 16:27

Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933

Thanks for your clarification. The fact we (I) thought it's AI generated can be considered to be a compliment, I guess.

The conversion to c64 format maybe didn't work out as expected. If you don't want to spend 30 hours on pixeling, you can still try PETSCII, which takes less time. :)

2023-12-09 16:49

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 118

Quote:

Or easier still, two categories: Pixel art and "open". Converting has always been seen as a dirty tactic, but bring it out into the open and that problem goes away, whilst everyone who'd prefer to create graphics using more traditional skills can do so separately.

I also think this might work.

2023-12-09 19:35

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11145

... until you notice ppl will still cheat and nothing changed :)

I love the idea of using AI to rank the entries though. Actually at last Beyond Tellerrand i met a guy who was working on an art project that uses an AI to do this - it "looks" at images in an exhibition with a camera, and then writes an analysis of the image, really fun.

2023-12-09 21:56

Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206

Quote: ... until you notice ppl will still cheat and nothing changed :)

I love the idea of using AI to rank the entries though. Actually at last Beyond Tellerrand i met a guy who was working on an art project that uses an AI to do this - it "looks" at images in an exhibition with a camera, and then writes an analysis of the image, really fun.

Quote:

... until you notice ppl will still cheat and nothing changed :)

If most of what is currently considered cheating is no longer considered cheating, has something not changed?

2023-12-09 22:12

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 118

Quote:

... until you notice ppl will still cheat and nothing changed :)

By ‘cheating’ I suppose you mean people would enter their converted gfx in the ‘handpixeled’ category? But if there was a separate category specifically for their work, why would they do that?

2023-12-09 23:56

Bitbreaker

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 501

Quote: Quote:
... until you notice ppl will still cheat and nothing changed :)

By ‘cheating’ I suppose you mean people would enter their converted gfx in the ‘handpixeled’ category? But if there was a separate category specifically for their work, why would they do that?

As people already yet tend to hide the fact that they use AI, there must be reasons for hiding it, may it be a feeling of being guilty or unworthy or to hide a lack of skills, who knows. It is not true and authentic without an own style and approach. On the other side, there's the praise that can be expected and might be desired. Why not try to catch it with less effort? Involve humans and things will get flawed :-)

2023-12-10 01:03

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11145

Quote:

By ‘cheating’ I suppose you mean people would enter their converted gfx in the ‘handpixeled’ category? But if there was a separate category specifically for their work, why would they do that?

Why? Because they can. And because apparently votes are super important for some people.

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