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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Handle id #3733 : Smalltown Boy
So some idiot with three fake accounts, or two idiots (one having have fake account), or even three separate idiots have given smalltown boy 1 point in the voting chart.
Why we tolerate such things. Users here were asking for this all the time. Even the poll was made for this. And what happened? User CAN permit that his votes aren't anonymous. Well if you guys at CSDB cleaned the mess after fake voters without disclosing their identity I wouldn't mind if the voters stayed anonymous, but you don't do that.
This whole system is so unhealthy that it doesn't have any reason to exist. None of your partial solutions helped the get rid of this problem. So either make visible voting or disable votes of invisible voters completely so they wont be affecting charts. That will save those idiots of any reactions from people who care and it will separate votes of grownup civilised people from votes of primitives.
Roman |
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Merman
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 140 |
I have to agree with you - this is exactly the sort of situation I knew would happen when we were discussing anonymous/open voting.
I haven't voted on many things in the CSDb, but when I have I've voted high - for things that deserve it. Downvoting sucks. |
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Luca
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 178 |
Ehhh, the infantile sceners exist from the dawn of times... |
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Shake
Posts: 133 |
You can give low votes to those who deserve it. A crappy production can earn a 3.
But giving a 1 to someone that produces descent gfx/code/msx whatever sucks. This is not because of the production, but to lower the average (downvoting) or some jealousy/sick motive. BOTH SUCK HARD! make those people visible, i'm sure noone would mind ;)
and hey, anyone can discuss or defend his rating, why not. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
caring so much about votes is unhealthy too, imho |
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Shake
Posts: 133 |
you're right of course. point is; solution is too easy to leave it like it is now. unhealty is getting tired of this repeating subject |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
So should I be ignorant? Tolerant? Careless? I'm not tolerant towards this kind of injustice and shameless lame manipulation.
Cut those anonymous idiots of any privileges they don't deserve any tolerance <Put any incredible ammount of exclamation marks here.>! |
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Merman
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 140 |
Quote: caring so much about votes is unhealthy too, imho
You're right, but there is no need for some of the deliberate downvoting that goes on. I'm sure the downvoting on Smalltown Boy has a lot to do with his comments on www.c64.sk about the SIDCOMPO and Ed - in fact that's why CreaMD started this thread. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Yes that's what lead me to react. I have finally decided to have a strong stand about this subject. Finally after so many months of partial solution there must be some final cut on this.
a) don't allow anonymous voters to vote!
b) reveal all voters!
c) drop all this unfair and lame system down completely coz it's getting sicker and sicker as it is being abused all the time and none of the math solutions work!
please!
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
CreaMD, why so harsh? (Sorry, I just had to.) |
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zdzisek
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 33 |
Hmmm, or at least maybe somebody could reveal those downvoters' names (as long as they're not like "jack2511"...) to show that voting here is not as much anonymous as they might have thought? |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Quote: CreaMD, why so harsh? (Sorry, I just had to.)
Okay okay. What do you think? Abnd don't tell me you don't care. |
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
I agree. I mean, look at the 1s and 2s in the Top10 demo list... if they were placed there because someone really really doesn't like Deus Ex, I could still understand, but... being a *tiny* bit bit vane (sorry :), I kept track of the votestats of Insomnia, Deus Ex and co. for an extended period of time... and I noticed that there simply was lots of deliberate shifting going on... Deus would get a 1 to lower its score, then Insomnia would get a 10 to be cranked up again and then vice versa... was this coincidence, or deliberate manipulation of the charts to make it look 'pretty'?
And now this thing that happened to SB... I'm NOT enjoying this. I guess it's because we're a small community, and downvoting becomes magnified as a consequence... just look at pouet.net... there *are* some *lamers* (yeah, let's use that term again) there who just downvote because of 'political' reasons or selfproclaimed 1337ness, but because there are so many more serious sceners who are honest about their stuff and that of others, their votes are not relevant for the end result.
Every basket has a few rotten apples, and I guess our basket is small enough for them to have impact on the overall taste... I think, though, that the good apples should be capable of seeing which are the other good apples and make sure that the rotten apples are ignored until they learn their lesson.
For now, I guess none of us should really hold any relevance to these votes and statistics - as a mathematician, I'd say that drawing conclusions using the information here is 'not of statistical relevance'... |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Okay my few cents to this:
First of all, I _agree_ with all comments here!
Well, next to really unfair votes, I wonder about the amount of votes. Is our "basket" too little for over 5 votes of some "downvoted" entries? Come one, it must be possible to get more than 5 voting on some stuff. Are we really that tiny?... :)
The more apples you have, the less you care about the rotten ones...
...and the more people vote on new entries, the better the mirror on the "hiscore list" is... the mirror of our point of view!
I think it is very unlikely to "cut" all the rotten apples to remove a worm because worms have one problem: They can go plural or grow :(
so far..
Joerg |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 465 |
I guess the timing does make it very suspect. Perhaps there needs to be a person vote/rank. Even if they make good stuff but they are a bit of a wanker in your opinion then it can show but anonymous voting can really screw this up. |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 475 |
i wonder if it's really that satisfying when people go on downvote-frenzy. i've been hit by that as well, though some low votes on my side seem to have vanished as soon as we had a discussion about that on #c-64. interesting to see was also that a certain release got a vote of 1 as soon as it got out.
i couldn't care less for the rank-system, but it's just shabby when people don't have the balls to reveal themselves once they had fun giving random low votes to someone who's usually getting average to high votes.
as stated ago, this isn't pouet where people do actually take a piss on someone they don't like personally. |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
CreaMD: Well, I don't really care about the votes, but it would make a whole lot more sense if the votes were transparent. As you may have noticed, I have chosen to display my votes. That way, anyone who's interested can see that I don't do silly stuff like up- or down-voting. |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
Now we would only like you to start wearing transparent clothes as well, Puterman. |
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Merman
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 140 |
The transparent voting wouldn't have prevented the "fakes" downvoting SB in this case... they can just choose to have invisible votes!
The real point is this - this negative opinion of SB is not based on any merit. I like his music a lot, but if he turned round tomorrow and insulted me for no reason, I wouldn't come on here and downvote him out of spite. I don't see the point.
Maybe a system of scoring like diving would help? Drop the highest and lowest marks automatically. Only count someone's votes when they have voted for a minimum number of entries AND their average vote is above a certain level.
Of course, the determined negative voters will find a way around any system! |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 465 |
Isn't that something like what Perff changed to? |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
There is not working automatical solution against fake voting, downvoting and intentional negative or positive manipulation of the charts. Only way how to prevent people acting against the good manners is to cut their influence (no voting for anonymous registered people). I really don't need to know who is the guy behind them, but I definitely don't want to know his "opinion". Another solution could be to disable the anonymous votes influence on chart by default and only allow the possibility to enable them for people who wish to have their charts trashed. Which I don't think anyone else that those f...rs (fakers ;-) will do ;-) |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Good suggestions overall by CreaMD, I'm all for either making all votes public or disable anonymous voting completely.
Gotta rush, have to upvote SB immediately... ;-) |
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Cybernator
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 154 |
Quote: caring so much about votes is unhealthy too, imho
Hollowman: It's not the votes what matters. Let me take 'Second Reality' by Smash Designs as an example. You realize how much effort it takes to make such thing. Not just the coding, but also the effort to learn all the stuff. And some LAMER voted 1 for it! It's not the number. It's the act. Moreover, I bet that whoever it was, he doesn't have the skills to make that demo.
Puterman: Now who's harsh, CreaMD or the lamer who voted 1 ???
And btw, I really don't get your voting criterion. You have voted 2 on Xmas 2002, and 3 on Second Reality. There's an enormous difference between the demos, and you have given almost equal votes. |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
Cybernator: The "harsh" remark is related to certain postings by CreaMD in other forums.
My voting criterion is simple: stuff I like get higher grades than stuff I don't like. The effort spent by the creator(s) of a production is pretty much irrelevant. I wouldn't give Metallica's crappy black album a high score just because Lars Ulrich spent six months tweaking the drum sound. Would you? |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: Cybernator: The "harsh" remark is related to certain postings by CreaMD in other forums.
My voting criterion is simple: stuff I like get higher grades than stuff I don't like. The effort spent by the creator(s) of a production is pretty much irrelevant. I wouldn't give Metallica's crappy black album a high score just because Lars Ulrich spent six months tweaking the drum sound. Would you?
For the first time, I have to admit that I see a sense in what Puterman says :)
Anyway, I wouldn't call "3" a good vote in comparation with "2"...
So, I do agree with him partly.
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Quote: Cybernator: The "harsh" remark is related to certain postings by CreaMD in other forums.
My voting criterion is simple: stuff I like get higher grades than stuff I don't like. The effort spent by the creator(s) of a production is pretty much irrelevant. I wouldn't give Metallica's crappy black album a high score just because Lars Ulrich spent six months tweaking the drum sound. Would you?
Of course not!.
Difference is that you are here to explain and even argue, or be explained, accused, shouted at, when necessary. You took the responsibility for your thoughts. I'm okay if Puterman gives me 1 for bad sidcompo organising ;-), but I hate to see someone gives someone else whom I respect 3 x 1 point and all responsibility the dude has is to live in his silent world of overmotivated ignorancy. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 465 |
Isn't the point of voting to give what you think a production/person/whatever deserves? If anyone really thinks Dutch Breeze deserves a 1 then that is fine. If someone dislikes someone involved with Dutch Breeze and gives the demo a 1 then I don't think that is ok.
Something that seemed to have sparked this is Ed's music. Some people think utter crap and vote 1. That is ok. Someone thinks it is brilliant and gives is 10 then that is fine. But someone should not vote his music because of him.
As long as people vote for the chart it is for then it's ok. Just don't be clouded in judgement. |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: Isn't the point of voting to give what you think a production/person/whatever deserves? If anyone really thinks Dutch Breeze deserves a 1 then that is fine. If someone dislikes someone involved with Dutch Breeze and gives the demo a 1 then I don't think that is ok.
Something that seemed to have sparked this is Ed's music. Some people think utter crap and vote 1. That is ok. Someone thinks it is brilliant and gives is 10 then that is fine. But someone should not vote his music because of him.
As long as people vote for the chart it is for then it's ok. Just don't be clouded in judgement.
Totally fitting to my opinion!...
So, for, I am out of this discussion for the moment... all things said :) |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
Quote: Hollowman: It's not the votes what matters. Let me take 'Second Reality' by Smash Designs as an example. You realize how much effort it takes to make such thing. Not just the coding, but also the effort to learn all the stuff. And some LAMER voted 1 for it! It's not the number. It's the act. Moreover, I bet that whoever it was, he doesn't have the skills to make that demo.
Puterman: Now who's harsh, CreaMD or the lamer who voted 1 ???
And btw, I really don't get your voting criterion. You have voted 2 on Xmas 2002, and 3 on Second Reality. There's an enormous difference between the demos, and you have given almost equal votes.
so you're only allowed to give a production a low grade
if you can do better yourself? i thought the point of
voting was that you could give your opinion about
a production.
perhaps it would be better if you and creamd sat down with every demo, composer etc. and decided what points are allowed to give it/him/her. then you could lock smalltown boys profile so noone(except someone who can do better music) can vote 1 2 or any other grades you consider unfair for him(havent seen anyone trying to attack the anonymous cowards who voted 9 and 10 for him, guess those grades were allowed..)
it has been a few years since i saw second reality/sd,
but as i remember it kb made good covers of the music.
but being a conversion of another demo it showed a total lack of imagination, but a lot of arrogance with the '(c)smash designs' and the 'this demo won the demo competition at the party' text. also it was partly quite ugly.
i can see a number of reasons why someone wouldnt like
that demo, but since you dont leave an explanation along
with your vote it you'll never know, but a few people here
seem to have a special sense for finding out the motives
behind votes..
i havent seen any guidelines about voting, for example that your vote is supposed to take consideration to the amount of work the production required. i simply thought that
10 means that i really like it and a 1 that i really didnt.
i havent voted much here before and now that seeing this
discussion i doubt that my voting will increase. i know
if i like a demo or not, but estimating how much that
is worth compared to time invested, my skill vs. the
makers skills, how sensitive the makers are, how much creamd
like it etc. is just too much work
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Quote: so you're only allowed to give a production a low grade
if you can do better yourself? i thought the point of
voting was that you could give your opinion about
a production.
perhaps it would be better if you and creamd sat down with every demo, composer etc. and decided what points are allowed to give it/him/her. then you could lock smalltown boys profile so noone(except someone who can do better music) can vote 1 2 or any other grades you consider unfair for him(havent seen anyone trying to attack the anonymous cowards who voted 9 and 10 for him, guess those grades were allowed..)
it has been a few years since i saw second reality/sd,
but as i remember it kb made good covers of the music.
but being a conversion of another demo it showed a total lack of imagination, but a lot of arrogance with the '(c)smash designs' and the 'this demo won the demo competition at the party' text. also it was partly quite ugly.
i can see a number of reasons why someone wouldnt like
that demo, but since you dont leave an explanation along
with your vote it you'll never know, but a few people here
seem to have a special sense for finding out the motives
behind votes..
i havent seen any guidelines about voting, for example that your vote is supposed to take consideration to the amount of work the production required. i simply thought that
10 means that i really like it and a 1 that i really didnt.
i havent voted much here before and now that seeing this
discussion i doubt that my voting will increase. i know
if i like a demo or not, but estimating how much that
is worth compared to time invested, my skill vs. the
makers skills, how sensitive the makers are, how much creamd
like it etc. is just too much work
First of all keep me of your daemagogic advocatus diaboli speech especially when you put ideas into my mouth which I haven't expressed.
I said it as clearly as possible and you obviously don't read what I say. So once more I reiterate my views.
I don't want to see anonymous voters votes affecting the charts. I don't mind if anyone gives any production 1 point, but that anyone must be signed. I'm pretty upset to see 3 anonymous idiots (or 2 anonymous idiots and one having fake account) or one anonymous idiot having 3 fake account showing us all how powerless we are in our tolerance. Or better said how vain is to protect anonymous voter's privacy. Say what you want Hollowman but don't tell me that you accept this way of organisation of the CSDB charts! |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 453 |
Hollowman, I really don't mind if someone gives me 1 or 10, but I'd like to see if it's an existing scener (with whom I am able to discuss why he/she likes my music or why he/she doesn't), or not. I don't appreciate anonymous votes at all. Therefore I agree on making all votes public.
How to say whether someone judges a scener by the quality of his/her works, or by personal feelings towards him/her, is another problem, and much more difficult to solve. |
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Cybernator
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 154 |
Hollowman: I think you got me wrong. It's not about being better or not, but in the case of Second Reality, it's seems to me that the guy really downvoted the demo. Like if you have insulted me, and I give you 1 point in return, no matter if your demo really kicks ass.
According to the votes, people seem not to like that demo a lot. Maybe I just have a different opinion. But in any way, giving 1 point to SR is quite ridiculous, imho.
Ok, back to the topic. This was about Smalltown Boy, and I think I went a little bit OT. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
creamd, i usually say whatever i want. sorry for overinterpreting your words. reading carefully i see that you only did draw the conclusion that if you give sb a 1 point, you are an idiot
actually i dont care much at all about the charts here,
people seem to have different ideas of their purpose.
as i understand it, many want the average score to
show some objective truth, since the ammount of work
and skill should be considered. then we could let a few
persons with insight tell their objective opinion. lets
say graham rates code, jailbird the gfx, sb the music etc and have the grades settled once and for all.
and we'd get rid of the problem with voters who dont know shit. then its no longer the public who rates demos and sceners, but subjective opinions seem to cause so much fuzz here anyway, especially since they dont come with a motivation attached.
non anonymous votes does make a bit of sense since you
can track down the person and perhaps get some suggestions
about what to improve. but then there are few people on the c64 scene i would listen to anyway..
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Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1665 |
About downvoting..
I havn't read all the posts in this topic through, but some time ago I tried to make a function that tries to figure out if votes are crap votes or not, and reduce them if they are.
I never got to make that as good as I wanted but it worked a bit. Now when I saw these votes I again went back and twisted my function a bit more, so now I think it works better.
At least smalltown boy's rating is now aprox 7.5 where before it was aprox. 6.5.
The best thing is ofcourse to find these crap voters and kick their ass, but that requires a LOT of time looking through log files etcetc, and personally I don't have time for that. :/ |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Quote: creamd, i usually say whatever i want. sorry for overinterpreting your words. reading carefully i see that you only did draw the conclusion that if you give sb a 1 point, you are an idiot
actually i dont care much at all about the charts here,
people seem to have different ideas of their purpose.
as i understand it, many want the average score to
show some objective truth, since the ammount of work
and skill should be considered. then we could let a few
persons with insight tell their objective opinion. lets
say graham rates code, jailbird the gfx, sb the music etc and have the grades settled once and for all.
and we'd get rid of the problem with voters who dont know shit. then its no longer the public who rates demos and sceners, but subjective opinions seem to cause so much fuzz here anyway, especially since they dont come with a motivation attached.
non anonymous votes does make a bit of sense since you
can track down the person and perhaps get some suggestions
about what to improve. but then there are few people on the c64 scene i would listen to anyway..
Thanx for rewording what I wanted to say. Yes and btw. that was the least brutal insult I could think of.
The rest of your text is a very shy *yes*, to my suggestion. Thanx. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Quote: About downvoting..
I havn't read all the posts in this topic through, but some time ago I tried to make a function that tries to figure out if votes are crap votes or not, and reduce them if they are.
I never got to make that as good as I wanted but it worked a bit. Now when I saw these votes I again went back and twisted my function a bit more, so now I think it works better.
At least smalltown boy's rating is now aprox 7.5 where before it was aprox. 6.5.
The best thing is ofcourse to find these crap voters and kick their ass, but that requires a LOT of time looking through log files etcetc, and personally I don't have time for that. :/
Perff I have one more suggestion which could be implemented. Make possibility to disable anonymous votes from charts in the CSDB user profile. If he doesn't want to see charts influence by votes from anonymous voters he will disable it. Either make it on or off by default, but please do that. I'll sleep better. Other wannabe suggestion doing the same as your routine does is that if an editor of the database entry wanted he could be able to disable anonymous votes for the database entry. All this debate leads into one and only conclusion ---> anonymous votes and voters are unwanted by the most people.
CreAMD |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
Judging by the number of votes that most releases get, I'd say it's more like votes are uninteresting to most people.
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Board Rider
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 15 |
I would have to agree on all posts here... I only voted on some demos and such... but, I thought they was very good demos.
Board Rider/CSD! |
