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MC
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 71 |
What makes a good SID editor?
So which feature(s) do you think are imporant?
What do you find annoying in an editor?
I'm trying to get an idea of what would make an editor stand out...
Ofcourse I have some ideas of my own but I'd first like to hear from other composers what they like.
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Good overview and fast response. That's why I stick with Goattracker; all in one screen, no page flipping, esc keys and all those time consuming clickerdiclicks... Editing sounds while playing is also nice.
I read in another thread about arpegios on track editing (protracker style) vs arpegio tables. I think editing arpegios on track is alot faster and easier, but can become messy in the end.
I'm not too fond of Goattracker's vibrato, but that might also be me. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
I agree with what Hein said about keeping the stuff on one (or two) screen(s) as much as possible to restrict excessive "navigation" etc... In addition to that, I also like to be able to control any aspect of the sound in any way at any time. ;) (Dunno if you meant to discuss strictly only the editor/gui, or if you include the player in what you call "editor" in your question.)
Okay, that comment was perhaps not entirely serious, but in a way I am not kidding. The things that put me off in other editors, such as JCH, was always some limitation when it came to controlling sound. For example, in JCH I could not let the filter sweep separately from instrument trigs, and also, JCH wouldn't let you trig filter programs from the track itself. In the end, I had to code my own editor to get what I wanted, and indeed I can do anything I want now with it. ;) |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Obviously the philosophical question whether we're talking about a duration or a tracker based editor should be discussed first.
Depending on that, the answer to what's annoying and whats important might differ :-D
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MC
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 71 |
What if an editor would allow both duration based AND tracker style editing? |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
Why not.. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: What if an editor would allow both duration based AND tracker style editing?
Ninjatracker has that. |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
Quote: What if an editor would allow both duration based AND tracker style editing?
Martin Piper's latest Music Studio 2.107 release includes that, too. |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
So which feature(s) do you think are imporant?
- sound of the player
- no export bugs, it is nice to have the same music/sounds in the packed file as in the editor
- powerful packer
- small rastertime consumption player
- note/instrument playback when a note is fed into the editor
- possibly one-screen layout
- realtime playback tracking
- setting instruments on the fly
- simple, straightforward interface
What do you find annoying in an editor?
- Can't really tell on my part. Same as with guitars, literally I never get annoyed by them. Maybe, some export bugs that turned me mad a couple of times... |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 465 |
Some like live playing/recording in the editor so they can jam away. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
realtime record mode with quantize |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
Quote:in addition to that, I also like to be able to control any aspect of the sound in any way at any time.
+1
Well, to a certain extent :) The more control, the better. This includes changing filtertype/resonance/cutoff/pulsetable pointer etc at any given time.
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
I guess we could actually speak about few upgrades for Goat Tracker and that would do it :D
Ie. Hardrestart per instrument, wavetable loop indepentent vibrato, and some other rastertime hungry but neat features :) |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
MIDI implementation and the ability to record fe. pitchbends and filtersweeps using transmitted CC's.
I know, this can be a lot of data but you can also store (after cleanup) the peaks/lows and interpolate between them. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Sounds like a job for SDI 3.0 :-D |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quoting ScoutMIDI implementation and the ability to record fe. pitchbends and filtersweeps using transmitted CC's.
I know, this can be a lot of data but you can also store (after cleanup) the peaks/lows and interpolate between them.
+10 for MIDI support! |
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MC
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 71 |
How about a adding a seperate master track that handles filter effects (through filter fx presets, channels applied to and channels triggered by) and global volume etc?
This has been on my mind for the last couple of days. |
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Spinball
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 87 |
isn´t there a 4th track in sdi?
i´m not a composer but wouldn´t i be cool to have atleast one player/editor that doesn´t care at all about rastertime or memory usage?
i guess one could squeeze some nice sounds out of the sid with such a player. the tunes would be unusable for demos, but who cares, as most sids released these days are never used in a demo anyway. think of it as something like NUFLI for the sid...
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
Quoting Spinballi´m not a composer but wouldn´t i be cool to have atleast one player/editor that doesn´t care at all about rastertime or memory usage?
i guess one could squeeze some nice sounds out of the sid with such a player. the tunes would be unusable for demos, but who cares, as most sids released these days are never used in a demo anyway. think of it as something like NUFLI for the sid...
Interesting thought...
I know that Prophet64 (and MSSIAH?) export executables that do such a thing.
Edit:
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11123 |
Quote:i´m not a composer but wouldn´t i be cool to have atleast one player/editor that doesn´t care at all about rastertime or memory usage?
what stops you from doing 8-speed or whatever tunes? =)
(and the p64 player is a really bad example imho, as it needs the cpu power because it sucks =P) |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quoting Groepaz(and the p64 player is a really bad example imho, as it needs the cpu power because it sucks =P)
Well, their youtube video makes me definitelly not wanting to buy it :)
btw. Goat Tracker saves to .sid. Lacks saving to .prg with a driver though. (but what is PSID64 for? :D ) |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
Quote: How about a adding a seperate master track that handles filter effects (through filter fx presets, channels applied to and channels triggered by) and global volume etc?
This has been on my mind for the last couple of days.
Check Jeff's X-SID ;) |
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MC
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 71 |
X-SID looks pretty good! I'll have a look at that when I get home... Any downsides to it? |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
sdi 3 has it all:
realtime record with quantize
keyjam
records midi input (when you press a psygoa arp on yer synth, it goes into the sid as an arp)
resonance envelope
what more we got ? .... geir hasnt updated me in a week, but:
pretty much every smart move he could think of, and geir... is smart! :) |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Has it? But where IS it :))
How about flt type selection in flt table? Or still remains fixed for all-yer-6581-tunes-won't-need-that-coz-it-clicks-anyway? :))
Not sure about jamming with flt resonance on SID. The range is soo poor anyways :)) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote: Has it? But where IS it :))
How about flt type selection in flt table? Or still remains fixed for all-yer-6581-tunes-won't-need-that-coz-it-clicks-anyway? :))
Not sure about jamming with flt resonance on SID. The range is soo poor anyways :))
w00t, cant change the filter type in the table? I think it doesn't click if you change only 1 bit per frame (or tick, for that matter).
Resonance sweep sounds like a good idea, despite it's low range. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Haven't seen an editor yet that uses $d41b and $d41c for modulation (filter, frequency, pulsewidth or whatever). |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
Quote: X-SID looks pretty good! I'll have a look at that when I get home... Any downsides to it?
Some MoFo stole it from Jeff and spread before it was fully functional so - as an obvious and only move - Jeff left it in the way as it was at the moment and moved on to developing a new and improved music tool.
So as an unfinished project, some things might not be working as they should, that's the downside. But it's still a pretty straightforward tool, one of the most impressive ones I've seen so far. |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quote: w00t, cant change the filter type in the table? I think it doesn't click if you change only 1 bit per frame (or tick, for that matter).
Resonance sweep sounds like a good idea, despite it's low range.
Yep. DMC v5 also doesn't have it (you have to set FLT and FRQ in the pattern) and to make it even more annoying only one voice can be filtered :D
6581 generates an audible click on filter type change. (similarly to volume change (also for 8580). And 6581 does click badly on fast flt type changes. |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Quote: Haven't seen an editor yet that uses $d41b and $d41c for modulation (filter, frequency, pulsewidth or whatever).
I've tried out this Hein, and it got quite boring and subtle. Didn't enhance sound design/quality at all. Quite uncontrollable is the correct word. The best is to create your own tables of modulations. And it is only the 3rd. SID voice you get the ADSR / Waveform output from anyway.
A resonance sweep/table is designed for the newer player, though. I find that useable. |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Quote: I guess we could actually speak about few upgrades for Goat Tracker and that would do it :D
Ie. Hardrestart per instrument, wavetable loop indepentent vibrato, and some other rastertime hungry but neat features :)
Hæ? Doesn't Goattracker have selectable hardrestart for each instrument? I find this the hardest part in the design in a player. I got headaches programming this part, but found a neat solution in the end. Some players don't trigger hardrestart correctly when swapping between instruments. Did alot of thinking 20 years ago upon this. :)
@Booker. What you mention in your IE is doable in SDI. There's alot of rastertime hungry new features. ;) |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
Quote:Hæ? Doesn't Goattracker have selectable hardrestart for each instrument?
It doesn´t have that feature, unfortunately :| |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Quote: Quote:Hæ? Doesn't Goattracker have selectable hardrestart for each instrument?
It doesn´t have that feature, unfortunately :|
All my players from the jura time has this. No wonder why the Goattracker player has low raster consumption. It do miss a lot of features.
I'd rather say what makes a great SDI editor. Hmpf hmpf. ;) |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quoting Geir
@Booker. What you mention in your IE is doable in SDI. There's alot of rastertime hungry new features. ;)
Yeah. Well I spoke about current V2 ;) And yes please release V3 :D
Quoting GeirAll my players from the jura time has this. No wonder why the Goattracker player has low raster consumption. It do miss a lot of features.
It does, and there's a lot of stuff GT will never have. :) Presumably its strongest side is the fact everything is on one screen.
For example in SDI V2 I was missing those lines taken by the bottom info screen wishing why there was no toggle for it. |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quoting GeirAll my players from the jura time has this. No wonder why the Goattracker player has low raster consumption. It do miss a lot of features.
I'd rather say what makes a great SDI editor. Hmpf hmpf. ;) |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
Quote:It do miss a lot of features.
It does indeed but then again it has a lot of advantages over other editors. The interface is a dream to work with and I haven´t seen that filter switch thing in any other editor so far. |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quoting Linus that filter switch thing in any other editor so far.
X-SID dude! :) Not to mention open hardrestart for each instrument :) But then, no follow play! Arrrrrghhhhh :) A tracker without follow play FTW :D |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Bookerkake:
The new BullSID _HAS_ followplay. Not that people like me need that - having done music and players in mc-monitors and assemblers back in the days. ;-)
Got some details written down on it - both for the
player and for the editor. Have tried to keep it simple
sofar - So now that much in-depth explanations there.
http://www.6581.dk/_new_BullSID32.txt
There are however still some things that I might add or change in the player itself.
Oh, got a few older screenshots here:
http://www.6581.dk/newbullsid_b.JPG
http://www.6581.dk/newbullsid_a.JPG
;-)
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Jeff: nice! ;) |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
That looks really nice Jeff. I like the new sprites design, giving you the idea of where in the range you're at. I told you. :)
Have you coded a 11-bit filter routine now? If not, you should. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
@Jeff: Looks good! |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Thanks :-)
Geir: Nopes, still haven't done that. I don't find it THAT important yet, but perhaps at some time I will. :-) |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
If I could chose between a resolution of 0-255 vs 0-2047, I wouldn't Think Twice. That's Just the Way It Is. :)
Fact: on the 6581 it gets sweeter, but not as noticable as on the 8580, where the curve is more rough, and this gives a dramatic enhancement.
As an example, some of you should check out Galway, Follin, Joseph, Dunn tunes, whom I find is almost the only ones using 11-bit filters. That's why Galway basses is so extremely fat and juicy. Check out filter basses on Game Over, Microprose soccer and Combat School. Dunn: The Untouchables and Total Recall (probably the best example). Peter Clarke: Ocean Loader 3 / Tai-Pan. Follin: Bionic Commando (intro especially).
You can actually sweep 8 steps between cutoff 00 and 01. What about that? And so on. Giving you 2047 possibilities. Using cutoff 00 on a 8580 is normally "dead", but not 00,1
Sorry for all these edits. Also Reyn's Last Ninja 3 uses this filter resolution (player coded by Falco Paul).
Actually this is the whole point for me doing a new SDI player with enhanced routines. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Quote: Quoting Geir
@Booker. What you mention in your IE is doable in SDI. There's alot of rastertime hungry new features. ;)
Yeah. Well I spoke about current V2 ;) And yes please release V3 :D
Quoting GeirAll my players from the jura time has this. No wonder why the Goattracker player has low raster consumption. It do miss a lot of features.
It does, and there's a lot of stuff GT will never have. :) Presumably its strongest side is the fact everything is on one screen.
For example in SDI V2 I was missing those lines taken by the bottom info screen wishing why there was no toggle for it.
GT2, with its dynamically compilable player, has essentially become unmaintainable. It's too scary to touch. Compounding this is the amount of hardware support (catweasel, the recent hardsid units) contributed by others, which I have no way to test.
If I had the time and personal motivation, I'd rather do a new editor from scratch, with nothing but emulated cycle-exact output path (compile to a final executable each time playback starts.) Thumbs up to Jeff & Geir and everyone working on new players / editors! |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
I hear there are some fat filter sweeps goin' on. |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
Quote:It's too scary to touch.
Awww, c´mon man :) Not much needed to make it a quite perfect editor I´d say. A proper detune per instrument and an 11bit filter routine is all there is left to do. I´ll happily donate something if you could at least get a detune routine in :) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Yeh, donate cash to Cadaver!
SID editors for money!!!!! :)
Serious, i would gladly give $35 for a decent shareware prog. (this is your chance to get rich, Geir)
hehe... |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
.oO(Perhaps I could pay Geir (in beer?) to implement that 11-bit filter) |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quoting cadaverIf I had the time and personal motivation, I'd rather do a new editor from scratch, with nothing but emulated cycle-exact output path (compile to a final executable each time playback starts.)
I'm wondering what makes you not motivated to do so? There are so many people already using Goat Tracker! Have you scanned HVSC to see how many tunes were already done with GTv1 and GTv2? 2060. To compare: with Geir_Tjelta/SIDDuzz'It: 588
Fully stuffed Goat player would make a lot of current users even more happy, mate!
Quoting Linus A proper detune per instrument and an 11bit filter routine is all there is left to do.
Well, vibrato on tone portamento and on wv-table loop wouldn't hurt either. :) + some more missing things people like Jammer or Conrad has spotted. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
It's as simple that I don't need a better or different musiceditor myself, as I'm extremely concerned about memory & rastertime, so making a "musician's" editor holds no personal interest. In fact for my purposes, NinjaTracker2.03 is so far the most optimal balance of features & performance and I currently don't know how to improve on that.
Plus, I don't get much of fulfillment or sense of accomplishment from doing featurerequests, I just get bitter :) I honestly see no way how I could change that fundamental personality trait.
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
/me hugs Cadaver |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
No worries Cadaver.
Perhaps someone will do SDI v3 GUI for PC =))) |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Just be an emulamer like me and use SDI in Vice.
It's as good as it gets and I think it's pretty good. |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
@Jeff. I'll do that with just a couple of virtual beers. ;)
@Cadaver. That's a pitty. Isn't possible to just implement small bits of code in your current player source? Updating the filter to 11-bits doesn't take more than minutes to do. The editor itself don't need any modifications because of that. The editor GUI I know is PC-based, but the music driver? Goattracker is a kickass baby of yours, you know.
@Booker and Stainless. I've been thinking of getting a C64 keyboard to the PC, as I'm hopelessly hitting the wrong keys on a PC keyboard (F-keys is especially). So I'll stick to the real deal until then. Anyone having info about a USB C64 keyboard for PCs ? |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting GeirrrrI'm hopelessly hitting the wrong keys on a PC keyboard Funny, the same happens to me when i use SDI on a real C64 :-D |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 501 |
@Geir: there's a nice C64 keyboard layout downloadable, why don't you just buy a cheap PC keyboard, glue the pictograms on the keys, voila :) |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Geir: google for "C64 usb keyboard". Some projects there, and some youtube video.
Stainless: all three SDI v2 tunes I did on Vice :))
I need some HardSID4U :)
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Geir: updating player code, in the case of filter as it's separate from everything else, is straightforward. However to support 11-bit filter fully there should be 11 bits wide data field for at least "set cutoff", possibly also for "modulation step", and then we start dealing with conversion of old songs, toggleable 8-bit mode for those who still want the old behaviour etc.
For that reason 11-bit filter for GT2 would be better off implemented as a thirdparty hack, that simply wouldn't have to care :)
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
This is how I designed it, and would work in the current Goattracker player too, with its design as it is.
Filter table:
Fx xx xxx= cutoff 0-7ff, 4 byte command call, next two bytes is..
yy xx yy=resonance, xx= bandpass
Sweep one step up (ADC)
01 xx xx= speed
Sweep one step down (SBC)
81 xx xx= speed
FA xx xx= execute jump xx times, then proceed
FF xx xx= jump
You see, no need to expand the table because of the 11-bit setting. It is more than enough with the range of 00-ff for the speed. |
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Grue
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 147 |
Quote: Quoting GeirrrrI'm hopelessly hitting the wrong keys on a PC keyboard Funny, the same happens to me when i use SDI on a real C64 :-D
Why dont you get yourself keyrah?
http://www.vesalia.de/e_keyrah.htm |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Quote: Why dont you get yourself keyrah?
http://www.vesalia.de/e_keyrah.htm
Interesting. Then you get the feel of the real thing. :) |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Quote: Geir: updating player code, in the case of filter as it's separate from everything else, is straightforward. However to support 11-bit filter fully there should be 11 bits wide data field for at least "set cutoff", possibly also for "modulation step", and then we start dealing with conversion of old songs, toggleable 8-bit mode for those who still want the old behaviour etc.
For that reason 11-bit filter for GT2 would be better off implemented as a thirdparty hack, that simply wouldn't have to care :)
Don't think of supporting old songs. Let the people adjust the tables themselves for the new settings. Otherwise you just get a headache. This is not gonna give us tits'n'chicks, or free beer on the table anyway. ;)
GT3 and SDI3. Why not? |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 833 |
Quote:For that reason 11-bit filter for GT2 would be better off implemented as a thirdparty hack, that simply wouldn't have to care :)
Well, speaking of hacking... it would be beneficial if you could provide a little guide on the library requirements and setups in order to recompile GT. Me being a C programmer as well, even I'm finding it hard to set up in order to do some hacking for my own benefit. :) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
There are recompiling instructions in GT2's readme, which tell the fairly basic requirements (MinGW compiler + SDL development libraries)
I know it's not a step-by-step tutorial on setting up or using them, which I understand can be slightly painful, but I don't think that's my job :)
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting GrueWhy dont you get yourself keyrah? Im fully content with the pc keyboard and its layout under vice :-D
I'd probably need a pc keyboard hookup for the c64 :-D
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
A good editor is also an assembler with a decent music routine. ;-) |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
I'd like to see an editor that lets me whistle a melody in the microphone of my Datel 8-bit sampler and turns it into a compo winning tune. |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Mace: Will you need an autotuner for that? :-) |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
No, I can do that remarkably well in tune, although I gotta practice the arpeggios. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Try to spend some hours with Synth by Georg Feil, this music program needs your deepest attention :) |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
What makes a bad SID editor? :) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
- if it's written outside Europe
- if you can edit by placing notes on a staff
- if there is no modulation of sounds at all
- if there's an extensive library of folk or religious songs made with it
:)
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 465 |
I guess an Aussie will need to create reasonable editor then. |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
A good editor is one you code yourself to make it just the way you want it to be. ;-)
Ofcourse you'll need to know how to code. |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
No shit, Sherlock! :) |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Quote: - if it's written outside Europe
- if you can edit by placing notes on a staff
- if there is no modulation of sounds at all
- if there's an extensive library of folk or religious songs made with it
:)
lol.
I have something like that, and it's on a cartridge (even worse, they got paid for it).
It can't even save or load anything either. Haha! Music Maker I think it's called.
EDIT:
Stupid-music-program-coders: "Do we need load and save options?"... "Nah!, this is total crap anyway" |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Anyone can make music in the Boulderdash player :)
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
I wouldn't even try using something that crappy :-) |
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MC
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 71 |
Well the concept is ready, now I gotta find time to code it all... ;)
So much to do, so little time!
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