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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Votesystem FAIL
OK, so why the vote system still exists, especially after all the devastating things it produces, is absolutely way beyond me.
It's rarely a representation of an objective, summarized opinion of the community. Either it's a playground for immature ding-dong fights I've had the luck to experience the last time in kindergarten, or it's simply a place for good old fashioned circlejerks.
I second Scout. At least I second the notion that this isn't really a place where I'd like to spend my spare time.
The constant pop-ups of topics considering the defecting vote-system is clearly a sign of something not working here the way it should. And yet, the cry ups keep getting ignored. For years.
Captain obvious is here to present you two options. One is to finally fix it, the other is to remove it for good. The latter one would be probably the best for all of us. And I think I'm speaking in the name of 99% of CSDb users here when I say that. Time to realize we are not IMDb with hundreds of millions of users, where a similar voting model works (more or less). Here, it's flawed and it simply fails on many, many levels
Pretty pretty please. Dudes who make and administer this site. Your work is fucking damn appreciated. I'd suck of all of you without a single second of consideration.
But for fucks sake. |
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
I like voting.
/Mr. 1% |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quote: I like voting.
/Mr. 1%
Noted. I like voting too, at the moment I'm even up on the top voters chart with ~800 votes. I'm not against voting in general. Yet the thing is, most of you would have to vote as much as I do and even more in order to direct the votesystem in a better direction.
But, it's not the case. Some of the users don't vote at all, some of us use it for plain asslicking, whilst others use it for personal vendettas, and what not.
So simply put, the system is still totally fucked up and basically worthless, whether we vote or not. |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 494 |
wrong! think about the politics. voting is never fair. asslicking and down voting (giving your vote to any party but one) is typical behaviour. remember the good old magazine charts. were they different? no. personally I used to have some favorite coders/graphicians/musicians and whatever other sceners do, I've always given my votes to the same people even if they don't deserve for that moment. It was wrong and I can see that now. But I did it. Many others did it. Some people still vote unfairly. But that's life, learn to live with it.
and yes, I understood your point. but it cannot be fixed and removing the voting system is not a solution either. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
May I suggest an option to hide the charts, vote points and the option to vote per user. Thus Jailbird and the other 99% can simply hide it. Easy as that. If not you, the makers of this site, can do that, then I'm sure a custom CSDB Greasemonkey script can do the job just as well.
To summarize, add an option per user: "[x] I will not participate in the voting system". When that box is checked, simply disable all the votes from that user in the count up.
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
The problem is, I'd like to participate in the voting, but in its current state I don't feel the urge any more. Hey, I don't want to hide the charts by default, I'd rather like to see a healthier system.
How to improve it? For starters, remove the silly option for anonymous votes. Then, we could move further. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
<Post edited by moderator on 19/11-2009 21:54>
"It's rarely a representation of an objective, summarized opinion of the community."
opinion is never objective. ppl who can not accept this AND other people's opinions belong to the kindergarten indeed.
GROW UP all of you votecrybabies. It's time learn to handle negative critics, and downvoting. The problem is with you and not with the system.
"The constant pop-ups of topics considering the defecting vote-system is clearly a sign of something not working here the way it should"
its the sign of childish ubernerds not being able to deal with the real world and its opinion as it is.
"One is to finally fix it"
there. I fixed it for ya. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: The problem is, I'd like to participate in the voting, but in its current state I don't feel the urge any more. Hey, I don't want to hide the charts by default, I'd rather like to see a healthier system.
How to improve it? For starters, remove the silly option for anonymous votes. Then, we could move further.
No the problem is, as you said yourself, CSDb is not IMDb. Anonymous voting or not. So, you will never get the voting system you like. The best thing you can do is to start preaching about CSDb and C64 demos around the world to get users to the site. Then when the user base is 100-fold bigger we might see a voting system that actually works.
But sure, non anonymous voting would perhaps remove the kindergarten-feeling in the voting system. I agree to that. But the votes will never show any form of objective result. |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
Ah, this time of the year again? :)
I vote for:
Each CSDb-scener has alist of 5 (or 10) all-time-fav demos/gfx/crack/tools (or just releases).
Those are public :) [though that is not necessary for this system]
The Top 10 of each category is generated daily based on the overall number a release appears in one of those lists.
So if 100 people have DeuxExMachine in their top5 this is better than a demo that only 90 people consider their personal top5.
This will give weight to old releases as well and nothing will/can be downvoted...
I see no point in differing between VERY bad and VERY VERY bad like it is now...
We need a BESTOF and that's all...
Downvoting will then be equal to NOT having a demo in his/her own list ;-)
Now go and advertise this idea as I post it every time there is this topic boiling up... |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
that would be nice to have, but keep the old system too :)
this reminds me to the adoption idea of the top of the month from pouet, which would be really really very very nice please with sugar on the top, Perff :)
..and tags please :) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Oswald: like it or not, a collective, average opinion of a diverse community leads to a more or less objective score. We are not voting YAY or NAY here, but have a scale from 1 to 10. Or, where do you live at the moment, in a cult of some kind?
Personally, I don't have problem with negative critics, but dude, anonymous downvotes without a single explanation are everything but negative critics.
Your usual attempts of discredit everyone who don't share your opinion, nevertheless the hiding of your votes speaks to me about your social problems and criticizing habit more than anything else. It's probably not me here who has a problem with accepting other people's opinion.
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: Ah, this time of the year again? :)
I vote for:
Each CSDb-scener has alist of 5 (or 10) all-time-fav demos/gfx/crack/tools (or just releases).
Those are public :) [though that is not necessary for this system]
The Top 10 of each category is generated daily based on the overall number a release appears in one of those lists.
So if 100 people have DeuxExMachine in their top5 this is better than a demo that only 90 people consider their personal top5.
This will give weight to old releases as well and nothing will/can be downvoted...
I see no point in differing between VERY bad and VERY VERY bad like it is now...
We need a BESTOF and that's all...
Downvoting will then be equal to NOT having a demo in his/her own list ;-)
Now go and advertise this idea as I post it every time there is this topic boiling up...
Count me in! |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quote: <Post censored by CSDb staff>
If something is clearly not working, what the fuck should we do with it? I said, the OTHER option. The first one is to fix it. One thing I see, you're certainly not helping the cause with your utter bullshit.
Enthusi: awesome idea |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1641 |
There are always more than two options in life, right? :)
My only opinion on this matter is that I think the voting could work better in terms of usability. It is quite annoying to end up at some other page, than the page with the release you're voting on, after you've clicked some vote-button or so. Then you have to go back again. This makes me, at least, avoid voting sometimes. (If this holds for other users as well, it might be a way to get more votes, if someone cares for that. :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
"Your usual attempts of discredit everyone who don't share your opinion"
"hiding of your votes","your social problems","criticizing habit","your utter bullshit"
Excuse me, who's discrediting who here?:)
there's nothing to fix here imho. I'm tired of the cry babies who act like primadonna's when they get a bad vote and all this "I dont like to be here because I got a downvote". Its fuckin childish and ridiculous. You could get a downvote even if there would be no hidden voting, and you could have an unworthy thumb down even in Pouet's system. All system will have space for that. So just live with it, and laugh on it, dont take it so fuckin serious, like most do. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
Quote: There are always more than two options in life, right? :)
My only opinion on this matter is that I think the voting could work better in terms of usability. It is quite annoying to end up at some other page, than the page with the release you're voting on, after you've clicked some vote-button or so. Then you have to go back again. This makes me, at least, avoid voting sometimes. (If this holds for other users as well, it might be a way to get more votes, if someone cares for that. :)
yeah, a youtubeish instant system could produce more votes. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
A votesystem like this works well only with a fucking huge number of votes. Look at IMDb, a relatively fair score for a movie forms after several hundreds, if not thousands of votes. Even when scaled down to CSDb's user-base, most of the releases or people have 10 votes at most, if not less. How accurate is that? And Oswald, please tell me why is that better than nothing at all?
But heck, it could even stay as-is, I don't mind. And I understand that we can't totally dismiss up/downvoting. Yet in this case, encouraging people to vote, and vote more-or-less fairly is the only way to make it a little better. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
@Oswald: talk about namecalling, what about votecrybabies, childish ubernerds? OK, let's say we're even.
But you tend to forget that the current votesystem is causing more problems than it helps. Believe it or not, people have consciousness and feelings. As an example, we have a common friend who takes the votes more seriously than life itself and causes him serious damages from time to time. Ring a bell? And for some reason, I believe he's not the only one. And the usual topics about the downvotes support me when I say that a bunch of people DO CARE about the votes. A lot of childish ubernerds here, right? :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
yes, I have to admit you DO have points here, but I simply dont see how some other system could remove these problems. People should grow up and see the voting system for what it is. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Bah. Everything will stay as-is anyway. I'm an idiot for bringing it up at all.
Fuck, there goes my whole morning \:D/ |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting CryBabyI'm an idiot for bringing it up at all. Glad you realised that :-D |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
HEY! But Perff should be thankful and include the following lines this into CSDb's codebase:
if($Jailbird == "bored at work" && $Oswald == "bogár") {
$CSDb_drama = TRUE;
$fun = TRUE;
do{
perff_relax();
} while (users_entertained() == TRUE);
} else {
$fun = FALSE;
do{
perff_fix_bugs();
} while (eternity() == TRUE);
}
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 727 |
Hmm.. JB, didn't you and Dr.Phil talk about this? Don't let your energy come out as phorum thread posts.. let it come out as pixels instead. You just need a clean sheet of paper, or load Gunpaint, then just let it out :). |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 494 |
@HCL: Admit it, you're just jealous about Jailbird's coding abilities. ;) |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Voting 1 really doesn't downvote. Check for yourself. ;-)
What's wrong with the calculations Perff ?
Voting shouldn't be anonymous. And it should be easier to vote, instead of losing the thread (going back and forth).
Votes of 1-6 would be more than enough, use your dice. :D |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 494 |
Quote: Voting 1 really doesn't downvote. Check for yourself. ;-)
What's wrong with the calculations Perff ?
Voting shouldn't be anonymous. And it should be easier to vote, instead of losing the thread (going back and forth).
Votes of 1-6 would be more than enough, use your dice. :D
1) Removing anonymous voting.
I'm fine with that
2) Using Ajax (or similar mechanism) in certain parts of CSDB.
It's ok for me too as long as Perff is happy with it.
3) Interpolating all voting system from 1-10 to 1-6.
I don't think CSDB ppl want to chance existing database like this. Btw, who said 1-6 is the best voting levels anyway? |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2914 |
Kill anon-voting.
Kill voters-without accounts.
Require account holders to attach to a scener entry.
LET THE RAG SESSIONS START!
;)
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 727 |
..and ban lamers! |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Quote: ..and ban lamers!
Yeah, ban lamers! LOL. |
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FATFrost
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 211 |
am i a lamer? (<_<) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:
But you tend to forget that the current votesystem is causing more problems than it helps. Believe it or not, people have consciousness and feelings. As an example, we have a common friend who takes the votes more seriously than life itself and causes him serious damages from time to time. Ring a bell? And for some reason, I believe he's not the only one.
if you want to do something good, help your common friend to cope with the real world and eventually cure his mental problem. really.
as for the voting, i can only repeat the same thing every time this topic comes up: the whole thing will remain broken if not much more people actually vote - and no whatever new vote system can fix that. (and wether votes are anonymous or not doesnt change anything really).
also the charts on csdb are probably still the best charts the c64 scene ever had. certainly a thousend times better than all the faked bullshit we had in diskmags :o)
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Zaz
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 33 |
enthusi's suggestion is a winner. I vote for it. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
>Quote:
>But you tend to forget that the current votesystem is >causing more problems than it helps. Believe it or not, >people have consciousness and feelings. As an example, we >have a common friend who takes the votes more seriously >than life itself and causes him serious damages from time >to time. Ring a bell? And for some reason, I believe he's >not the only one.
Whoever said that hit the nail.
If you dont already know, then here is how it is.
I am a child, i need attention, i am autist, i sat with my computer since 1985 every day and made music or collected it. Programming demos on ly has 1 purpose for me, to become medium carrier for my music creations.
Ofcourse i am tied up on feelings, and friendships, and that C64 is a family.
i am not grown up, and i never will be.
I seek feedback that encourages me to try new things, and tell me what is good and bad.
All the comments who are a sing of jealousy or competition feelings, i cant use for anything.
This is not stone age where i only need food and sex to survive, i need to get to level 1 on maslovs pyramid.
I need to realize myself.
I am stuck with the computer, as i am unable to interact with the real world. In fact i can do the real world, but i choose not to, because its even more kindergarten than the scene is, from where i see it.
About the votes i will give an example:
A beginner musician with minimal melodic skills, and 1986 sounds, bad hard restart and several wrong things, get voted 8 for a drum base tune.
Then here i come with 20 years of making tunes, and my tune has a melody that is remembered, long after you forgot the simplistic noisy sid you voted 8 for.
Anyone can hear that i spent 30 man hours doing my tune, and the other guy spent 4 hours, and yet..
And then you vote my work a 6 ?
IT hurts my feelings.
If you dont like it, then either please: say how you think it can be improved, or: stop filling up the comments for a release with negative comments.
What do you want to accomplish by pure negative things ?
feel that you are the master ?
be a judge ?
Why dont you take what i give you: creative work
and give me back: creative feedback
Now geir will slash me for writing all this, but i dont care. i just say exactly what i feel, and if you cant respect this, then i dont care. i know who i am and what i want, and that i must live with being hurt over and over by underage kids who have not as much self insight as me.
:D |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
Quote:
[...] stop filling up the comments for a release with negative comments.
What do you want to accomplish by pure negative things ?
feel that you are the master ? be a judge ?
Classics Again
"User Comment
Submitted by Jan Harries [PM] on 29 October 2008
uhm.. the drumbeat is a 1st lesson thing. really uninspiring. the sounds fall over eachother, coz multispeed is not always the solution. i will never listen this again."
Vote: 1/10
That is just one example out of dozens.
Quote:Then here i come with 20 years of making tunes, and my tune has a melody that is remembered, long after you forgot the simplistic noisy sid you voted 8 for.
What am I supposed to vote for your releases if I compare that Jammer track with your output, huh? :)
No, I am not trying to hurt you, but you should consider performing the art of self-reflection from time to time.
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
25 october 2008 was a different time.
i was opposed to jammer, i did not see his qualities, i hated newschool.
the message came out wrong, instead i should have been constructive but i wasnt.
what i dont like about you is that you go for the man, and not the content.
you seem overly obsessed with my persona, if you can point out a bug, you will do that, just for your own satisfaction and point the finger : "you messed up! hahaha!" - instead of just listening the music or watching the demo.
you should reflect on that.
best compliment you gave me was for nemesis the wize in private chat when you just cut to the bone and said "it works", and left out all the gritty details.
or when you said my sounds was good.
cause i leeched some knowledge from you, and i thank you for your tips!
some people can guide others along, human wise, and others are so obsessed with technicalities that they reflect those shortcomings onto the other person..
well, as usual i will repeat myself: chat and mail and forum is bad, human wise. it creates kindergarten.
if you really is not an asshole and want to tell me things, or discuss, a phone or real talk on a party is preferred.
i really hate chat/mail/comments, we can never fully express ourself in these media forms, and especially not me.
as far as you an me go linus, we are still on the "misunderstanding" list :D |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
i take all this very serious, because its my life
maybe you have a job and c64 is a hobby.
c64 is not my hobby, its my life. (music, also outside c64) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
<Linus> get a life!
i have a life, its music 20 hours a day and 4 hours of sleep and some coding on the side. |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
Quote:you seem overly obsessed with my persona, if you can point out a bug, you will do that, just for your own satisfaction and point the finger : "you messed up! hahaha!" - instead of just listening the music or watching the demo.
Nopes, I am not obsessed with your persona.
To tell you the truth I think you act completely arrogant and unfair most of the times calling other people`s work worthless, crap and what not while delivering mediocre stuff praising it to death (the only club style sid in existence, opus, etc etc).
That is the only reason for me to point that stuff out.
And for the record ... I never downvoted anybody including you. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Let's all have a group therapy session together, shall we? |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2914 |
Ah, the thread is ruined.
*plop*
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
This thread was doomed right from the begining. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:
A beginner musician with minimal melodic skills, and 1986 sounds, bad hard restart and several wrong things, get voted 8 for a drum base tune.
Then here i come with 20 years of making tunes, and my tune has a melody that is remembered, long after you forgot the simplistic noisy sid you voted 8 for.
Anyone can hear that i spent 30 man hours doing my tune, and the other guy spent 4 hours, and yet..
And then you vote my work a 6 ?
IT hurts my feelings.
your fundamental problem is, that you mistake public voting for expert opinion. (that seems to be a general problem on teh internets ...). public voting is nothing but a statistic entity that reflects anything but what you expect. public voting means scooter==cool music and sid remixes==annoying beep blop stuff for nerds with no life. public voting chooses the straightforward disko stomper crowd pleaser tune in the compo over the much more complex and not quite ordinary laid back funkjazz tune in the compo.
please dont complain that when you ask for public voting, what you get isnt expert opinion you can agree on, but often completely uninformed bullshit.
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
@Groepaz: Good point. Truth is in there.
Considering music (any kind), value vs recognition is usually painfully unbalanced so it's a hard problem and an unlimited source of frustration. If it was balanced, Rob Hubbard was a multi-billionaire, and "Hello Barbie Girl" could not pass through the door of a rehearsal room - unless it's in a brilliant Syntax 2009 winner tune :) |
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Devia
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 401 |
I just wasted god knows how much time reading through 45 posts and I have NO clue as to what the original subject/post was about, except that I seem to remember being in agreement with enthusi and oswald... at least there was some nice kittens, though.. CSDb never fails, hooray!
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V-12
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 206 |
Personally I'm against voting system, because IMHO the database should be objective, just like a book where we can found important datas. |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
"Can it be there's been some sort of error?"
"Hard to stop the surmounting terror?"
"Is it really the end, not some crazy dream?"
Hallowed Be Thy Name - Iron Maiden
Now, sing it backwards. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 460 |
"Considering music (any kind), value vs recognition is usually painfully unbalanced so it's a hard problem and an unlimited source of frustration."
don't mistake your own musical taste for objective value. (the latter does not even exist in case of music, i suppose.) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
am i cured now ? |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: Quote:you seem overly obsessed with my persona, if you can point out a bug, you will do that, just for your own satisfaction and point the finger : "you messed up! hahaha!" - instead of just listening the music or watching the demo.
Nopes, I am not obsessed with your persona.
To tell you the truth I think you act completely arrogant and unfair most of the times calling other people`s work worthless, crap and what not while delivering mediocre stuff praising it to death (the only club style sid in existence, opus, etc etc).
That is the only reason for me to point that stuff out.
And for the record ... I never downvoted anybody including you.
The only praising i can find of my own stuff, is that one thing you mention, 12th dimension.
i ask you again, give me the hvsc links to other mix tunes, since i dont know where they are. |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
@GT: Backwards? That must end up to be some Black Sabbath song, or some sentence from Corrado Balducci's brilliant book I liked so much :)
@Randall: Would I mistake objective anything with subjective anything? Don't know man. Just turn on any contemporary hit station. Those represent the mass success, money, fame, top-of-the-hill, whatsoever - so it's some objective measurement of recognition, right?
Now start counting acts that you consider to be really talented. Great singers who could exist without autotune (even for small sections) and don't go offkeys onstage. Superb musicians who could exist without extensive editing (or even play better live than recorded). Perfectly carved melodies. Meaningful lyrics. Songs that you will remember after a long time. Things that influence you to make music. Fresh ideas... Are these qualify as "musical value"?
After all, maybe, you're right - I'm a mofo who can see the world only from his skull, my opinion won't change yours and your won't change mine. Amen to that. Now let's have beers. Cheers!
Indeed, considering "hit music" the first word that comes to my mind is "shitstorm" and my mind wants to bite off my ears and my hands want to crank my Marshall up so high that sound waves start to blast cracks to the concrete :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
Quote: Personally I'm against voting system, because IMHO the database should be objective, just like a book where we can found important datas.
CSDb is not only a database, but is the scene's central hub, releasesite, community forum, etc. For most people its rather this, than a database imho. If it wasnt intended to be so, then please shut down the forums/comments/votings now and stop this madness :) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Like i said: solve it all by making all votes public.
and get proper admins that remove offtopic comments on releases.
and have the admins encourage people to talk nicely, and tone down the kindergarten gene:
then this is a pretty nice place to be, like it was when it started. but i feel the bitching has grown, due to lack of real moderators.
do something about it!
i raise awareness! i am your bad conssience! :D |
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A Life in Hell
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 204 |
You are all idiots. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: You are all idiots.
you sir, just pour more fuel on the fire with that remark |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Aww. :')
And while we're at it, don't forget to check out my collection of cuteness |
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Kristian
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 126 |
Ungh! Damn, I hate cats. |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
Quote: You are all idiots.
Considering my part in the shitstorm -
You're right! I am :) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
i cant take anything serious anymore, im a cured newborn LOLMAN |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:CSDb is not only a database, but is the scene's central hub, releasesite, community forum, etc. For most people its rather this, than a database imho. If it wasnt intended to be so, then please shut down the forums/comments/votings now and stop this madness :)
you hit the problem on its head - too many people take csdb for more than it is. and infact i agree, if i were to decide, voting, comments and possibly the forum would go.
there is a quite interisting relation between how much csdb users contribute to the database and how much they are bitching in the forums too :o)
Quote:Like i said: solve it all by making all votes public.
again: what exactly do you think this would change? it changes nothing really. except it gives you even more fuel for bitching. my votes are "secret" for exactly that one simple reason. i cant be arsed to discuss them with people who think they know better than me what i should have voted.
Quote:and get proper admins that remove offtopic comments on releases.
what kind of comments are "offtopic" ? comments *are* removed every now and then (mind you, only if someone complains, noone wants to monitor all comments really) - but certainly not simply because they hurt your feelings because they tell you your release is crap. such kind of comments are anything but offtopic.
Quote:and have the admins encourage people to talk nicely, and tone down the kindergarten gene:
i dont know, but imho most talk here is "nice". there is always some bitching here and there, but thats live, really. i really dont see that there is a extraordinary high amount of kindergarden posts here. compared with other webforums, quite the contrary is true. and compared to what used to be normal in the scene in the BBS days - csdb is an entire peaceful silent place for nuns.
Quote:then this is a pretty nice place to be, like it was when it started. but i feel the bitching has grown, due to lack of real moderators.
what you really feel like is, that for some reason the moderators have a different opinion than you in some aspects. and one of the people contributing to the bitching for exactly that reason is - you.
and to be honest, i was thinking about deleting a bunch of posts from this thread before, because they contribute zero to the topic and only contained personal whining about someones sorry existance. not doing it right away turned out to be a mistake, i see that now. ofcourse deleting them would have been a mistake aswell, and someone would already be doing the evil-nazi-moderators dance.
for short: nothing changed at all. nothing to see. move on.
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Oh, so this was about the voting system here on CSDB.
Public votes is what I vote for... and no voting from "fake" profiles.
And whoever can't take criticism or votes below a certain level, should probably consider not releasing stuff here.
I've been told how my music sucked back in the beginning, by people who were good at doing music. And have been trying to learn from that, to move on.
So if I say something like "that tune of yours is not catchy, lovable or interesting", then I mean that.
But if you read closely, it doesn't say that "I hate you! You are shit!" and so on...
Since some can't handle the truth, I choose to only comment on stuff that I like and find interesting, from time to time.
And I can not take any responsibility for how each individual reacts on comments... I just think that comments work well for people who can take it. Easier to learn (if you want to, instead of whining) from comments, than from votes.
If you want to be part of the real world, you'll also have to learn to take criticism. No matter if it's good/bad or hard/soft. By "hard/soft" I mean, that if you have a job, you can sometimes be told that you're not doing well enough, in a soft way, or in a hard way. You may think your boss is an arse if he says things the hard way, but sometimes that's what works best.
Anyways, cheer up! And really, Too much drama here. I am happy about checking stuff, when good stuff is released. It's part of what drives me to do c64 stuff myself.
:-)
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:Public votes is what I vote for...
i seriously dont get why people think this would be an improvement. imho the only reason to demand this is curiosity =) really, how does it help?
(i find it especially funny when people claim it had been like this in the past, in mags or party compos... reality distortion field ftw, please tell me what you are smoking =P)
Quote:and no voting from "fake" profiles.
thats impossible to do obviously :) although the various things that emerged from the wdr/secretman/crypt drama resulted in lots of double accounts found and deleted (and much harder to create new ones). |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting Groepaz
i seriously dont get why people think this would be an improvement. imho the only reason to demand this is curiosity =) really, how does it help?
This actually happened:
User downvotes me with a 1 (anonymously)
I find out who he is (he's a scener I've had some irrelevant disagreements with, about a totally frivolous topic) and ask him politely for the reason. I might suck a lot, but I don't think I deserve a 1.
User says it's a mistake, changes it to a 4 or 5 or 6, doesn't really matter. Case is closed.
Might be I'm wrong here, but publicity could make people give more objective votes. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:
This actually happened:
User downvotes me with a 1 (anonymously)
I find out who he is (he's a scener I've had some irrelevant disagreements with, about a totally frivolous topic) and ask him politely for the reason. I might suck a lot, but I don't think I deserve a 1.
User says it's a mistake, changes it to a 4 or 5 or 6, doesn't really matter. Case is closed.
Might be I'm wrong here, but publicity could make people give more objective votes.
if anything, weak minded people will give votes that cause less disagreements. do we want that? i dont think so.
also if someone votes you 1 - given enough votes - it is completely irrelevant. who cares really. if you have a problem with a few extremes in the statistics that result in what you see as vote, then you have a far more serious problem than the voting system in general. no change to the system could fix it either, extremes always exist.
edit: i deleted the kittens pictures too ... isnt it awesome how they pop up in the thread like this? =P
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
@Groepaz: Are you afraid of critism of your "secret" votes?
You behave just like Jan Jan Binks. Let there be democracy. The majority seems to want the anonymous voting dead, once and for all.
Mjau. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:@Groepaz: Are you afraid of critism of your "secret" votes?
no, i am not. i have said often enough how i vote (10s and 1s only) and people who i dont agree with usually know that aswell. personally i would have zero problem with making my votes public - i just find the idea extremely silly, and thats why i dont do it.
Quote:Let there be democracy.
arent anonymous votes pretty much the one basic core foundation of every democratic society ? =P
and still, i dont see how non anonymous votes would improve anything. only people who dont have the slightest clue on how statistics work can assume something like that =P
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Tell us why anonymous voting is so good ?
And voting only 10s or 1s, how stupid is that? Now I understand why you're a anonymous coward.
If the majority votes for non-anonymous voting, that's democracy. Wonder what's in your veins.
And yeah, escape, run to the IRC.... |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting ControlFreakYou behave just like Jan Jan Binks.
The infamous one?
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting Groepazalso if someone votes you 1 - given enough votes - it is completely irrelevant.
Brought it up just as an example for the sneaky behavior which the current system encourages.
Quoting Groepazwho cares really. if you have a problem with a few extremes in the statistics that result in what you see as vote, then you have a far more serious problem than the voting system in general. no change to the system could fix it either, extremes always exist.
To my defense, it happened ages ago when a 1 meant a sudden drop on the average from 10-20 votes (at most). Downvotes just started to appear, and the difference after even one was often very prominent.
What I still do regularly is to check the votes for my releases as it is kind of good to be aware about others' opinions, even if they're passive. Down- or upvotes have no value in this case, so I've learned a long time ago how to ignore them. But it's really not about me.
What I disagree with, is that the only solution here would be to send sensitive/responsive people to seek for professional help whilst continuing to ignore the obvious problems. The usual storm of indignation which covers this whole topic is a clear sign that there are way too many introvert geeks on this site who are extremely touchy when it comes to unfairness and injustice. On the other hand, it's more than fairly obvious that there is a group of anti-social nerds who solve their problems by irritating the aforementioned ones. Catch 22, it is :) |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Please Stain, you're a nice guy, but...
Non-Anonymous voting will also lead to more thought-through voting and show a more realistic result. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:Tell us why anonymous voting is so good ?
the argument doesnt work like that. if you think anonymous voting is bad, and you want to remove it, you have to tell why its bad, and what would be fixed by removing it.
you also gotta think that if anonymous voting would be bad, then every democratic state on earth wouldnt be using it. (and the reasons are very much the same there as they are here)
Quote:And voting only 10s or 1s, how stupid is that? Now I understand why you're a anonymous coward.
its no less stupid than thinking the vote results would (or even should) in any way reflect "objectivity". statistically it doesnt matter much, as i dont vote for mediocre crap at all. i am just doing "thumb up" and "thumb down" (as suggested by many others, even in this thread). no more no less. it might be stupid, but yeah, so is taking the whole voting thing seriously =P
Quote:If the majority votes for non-anonymous voting, that's democracy. Wonder what's in your veins.
i dont see any sign of "majority" in this thread, really. infact the majority of actually active users (as in: those who contribute to the database) doesnt use the voting crap nor the forum at all.
i can only repeat what i told someone else when he demanded rules for the demoscene: make sure to get the *actual* majority behind you, and then come back. look at the amount of accounts for a hint on what that means. a handful people that repeat the same boring things over and over for many years do not make a majority. it should be easy to get some hundreds of names behind you if it actually exists.
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Read my post above. And don't be obsessed by the fact that anonymous votes really works, because it don't. The voting system as it is now is NOT a thumb up or thumb down. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting Groepazi dont see any sign of "majority" in this thread, really.
Really? Interesting, as I remember about a certain poll where the majority voted for removing the option for anonymous voting. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting GTNon-Anonymous voting will also lead to more thought-through voting and show a more realistic result. Hey dont drag me into that discussion. I'm just here for the trolling. I dont even know what you guy's are talking about. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting Groepazinfact the majority of actually active users (as in: those who contribute to the database) doesnt use the voting crap nor the forum at all.
And that's a very good argument why should we dismiss it. |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Quote: Quoting Groepazi dont see any sign of "majority" in this thread, really.
Really? Interesting, as I remember about a certain poll where the majority voted for removing the option for anonymous voting.
You're correct. I wouldn't brought that up if there wasn't a majority in this forum. I don't care about the votes, but I see they are totally misleading. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:Non-Anonymous voting will also lead to more thought-through voting and show a more realistic result.
so, why do democratic states have secret voting on elections, if making the votes public could possibly lead to more thought through voting and thus a better result?
Quote:What I disagree with, is that the only solution here would be to send sensitive/responsive people to seek for professional help whilst continuing to ignore the obvious problems. The usual storm of indignation which covers this whole topic is a clear sign that there are way too many introvert geeks on this site who are extremely touchy when it comes to unfairness and injustice. On the other hand, it's more than fairly obvious that there is a group of anti-social nerds who solve their problems by irritating the aforementioned ones. Catch 22, it is :)
what people should simply realise is that the whole idea of "lets have votings so we can have nice objective stats on every release" is completely flawed. the ONLY way to fix the voting is to have many more actual voters. you cant compute any half meaningful value from 20 votes, thats just completely pointless - and thinking making votes public would change that fact is just utterly stupid be itself.
Quote:And don't be obsessed by the fact that anonymous votes really works, because it don't. The voting system as it is now is NOT a thumb up or thumb down.
i am not obsessed by the fact that anonymous voting "works" (whatever that means). i am just pointing out that making them public would NOT fix the current situation with the voting system.
i totally agree that the voting results are broken - because not enough people voted - and therefor they shouldnt be taken seriously.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:Really? Interesting, as I remember about a certain poll where the majority voted for removing the option for anonymous voting.
what poll would that be, and how many of the ~1500 users voted, and how many of them formed said "majority" ? i'd be surprised if more than 20 even bothered to read the thread =P
Quote:And that's a very good argument why should we dismiss it.
i have said that often enough, i would remove it right away :) but i am NOT with the majority here =) |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
THIS is not politics.
OK. We agree in one thing: not enough voters.
BUT That is because the system doesn't work. It is fucked up. So users doesn't care of voting at all.
PROBLEM with anonymous voting:
Fake, double, triple, accounts.
Manupulating to get your group or whatever to look better.
Voting either 1 or 10, like Groepaz
Having some dissagreements and arguments, leads to downvoting
Just a small list...
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
And finally:
What are "we" afraid of ?
"Fear of the Dark"
- Iron Maiden |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
While I myself am guilty of being curious to know who exactly "downvoted" what, I'm afraid I'm with Groepaz here.
Imagine the shitstorm that would break loose if suddenly everyone could see who voted 1 on his release etc.
Chaos would ensue.
The downfall of humanity, armageddon .. 2012 all over CSDb.
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting Groepazso, why do democratic states have secret voting on elections, if making the votes public could possibly lead to more thought through voting and thus a better result?
Apples and oranges. For God's sake, we're not voting here about the next government, we're stating simpleton opinions on works of people we know and share our stupid hobby with.
Quoting Groepaz
what people should simply realise is that the whole idea of "lets have votings so we can have nice objective stats on every release" is completely flawed. the ONLY way to fix the voting is to have many more actual voters. you cant compute any half meaningful value from 20 votes, thats just completely pointless - and thinking making votes public would change that fact is just utterly stupid be itself.
Agreed. But when will we have enough votes for a fair stats? In 5 years? Or 10, 20? In that case, we could face away from it for another decade till it gets better. All done.
Quoting Groepaz
i am not obsessed by the fact that anonymous voting "works" (whatever that means). i am just pointing out that making them public would NOT fix the current situation with the voting system.
Well if nothing else, public voting will at least make most of the downvoters to delete their shifty votes. Anyway, it won't make the system worse, that's for sure. But what we'd actually avoiding with it, is the negative social aspect it produces, which is seemingly none of your concern. What about less disagreements, uproars, confrontations, pointings, "backstabbing", etc. etc. You name it.
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Quote: While I myself am guilty of being curious to know who exactly "downvoted" what, I'm afraid I'm with Groepaz here.
Imagine the shitstorm that would break loose if suddenly everyone could see who voted 1 on his release etc.
Chaos would ensue.
The downfall of humanity, armageddon .. 2012 all over CSDb.
Easy. Just put out the news beforehand. You have a month to delete your stupid votes, or they get public entertainment. |
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Kristian
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 126 |
First of all, I don't think a public votingsystem would be more fair than an anonymous system. Quite the contrary. I think most people would give a higher vote if they knew they might have to defend their vote later. Nobody wants to be the asshole.
There might be a problem with double and triple accounts, but that got to be fixed another way.
In my opinion the biggest mistake with the voting system today is the scale of one to ten. It should be reduced to something like one to three, or five at maximum. This would take away much of the effect of downvoting.
I'd probably vote for removing the chart system and keep the votes visible for releases only (only to give people a clue what others may have thought of it). I don't know how to explain this any better, but the way the charts work today just seem kinda weird to me. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:THIS is not politics.
everything in life is politics :) also, the same applies to any sort of voting.
Quote:OK. We agree in one thing: not enough voters.
BUT That is because the system doesn't work. It is fucked up. So users doesn't care of voting at all.
thats your assumption, based on the assumption that if the voting would "work" suddenly everyone would start voting like there is no tomorrow.
more close to the truth is, that the relation between number of entries in the database and active users (assume that about 10% visit the site frequently) is simply way too unfortunate to ever result in a reasonable number of votes per entry. the current #1 top voter has voted for 10% of the entries during how many years, 10?
Quote:PROBLEM with anonymous voting:
Fake, double, triple, accounts.
that wont be affected by making votes public at all. its also not too much of a problem anymore, like said before. on top of that, since moderators actually can see everyones votes, it can easily be spotted if suspected.
Quote:Manupulating to get your group or whatever to look better.
why would making my votes public stop me from voting 10 for my group or my releases?
Quote:Voting either 1 or 10, like Groepaz
and how would it change that?
Quote:Having some dissagreements and arguments, leads to downvoting
and what is "downvoting" anyway? everyone is free to vote whatever he wants, isnt he?
Quote:Agreed. But when will we have enough votes for a fair stats? In 5 years? Or 10, 20? In that case, we could face away from it for another decade till it gets better. All done.
see above :) IMHO atleast a long long time will pass until enough votes for a reasonable amount of entries in the database are collected. and speaking for myself i can say, that the major reason for me to not really take the voting stuff serious at all is that there are tons of other much more important things to fix and to do concerning the database. and that seems to be the general opinion among most of who are adding and fixing entries.
Quote:Well if nothing else, public voting will at least make most of the downvoters to delete their shifty votes. Anyway, it won't make the system worse, that's for sure. But what we'd actually avoiding with it, is the negative social aspect it produces, which is seemingly none of your concern. What about less disagreements, uproars, confrontations, pointings, "backstabbing", etc. etc. You name it.
i seriously doubt it would result in less of all that, quite the contrary. the stream of votes and revenge votes and flaming because someone voted a 5 for something that so totally kicks ass it atleast deserves a 9, i dont want to see it. the concern about the social aspect is exactly why making your votes public is completely your own choice.
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting Kristian RøstøenI think most people would give a higher vote if they knew they might have to defend their vote later.
Well let it be. A 3 or 4 is still more fair than a 1 for a solid work and I've never encountered with a dispute about a low middle-range vote, neither I've seen a single topic about "anonymous 3s" or one entitled: "OMG someone just downfoured me!" :) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting Groepazi seriously doubt it would result in less of all that, quite the contrary. the stream of votes and revenge votes and flaming because someone voted a 5 for something that so totally kicks ass it atleast deserves a 9, i dont want to see it. the concern about the social aspect is exactly why making your votes public is completely your own choice.
I'm not sure of this, but you might be right.
I'm getting tired of this discussion, especially as it won't change anything around here. /Off to upvote my bed.
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
"Let it Be"
- The Beatles |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
After reading all this, here is my current analysis:
1. releases are art
2. art is hard to weigh and measure, and all have other opinion about it, fine with that.
3. when a band releases a new album, the critics and music jounalists write a review of the release. they never say utter crap, or pure brilliance, they try to review it, so the reader can get food to form his own opinion.
this is the same as a scale, and not 1 or 10, or up or down.
4. by making all votes public we achieve this:
the artist can ask any voter, "why do you like it so much ?"
or, "why do you hate it so much ?"
he will be likely to do this in private. whats the use to open a thread and write "hey Geir, why do you vote 4 for this ?" - it dont concern you, only the artist and geir.
secondly, you can find downvoters.
unless its a basic demo with flashing bordercolors and a text saying "Hello World!" - nothing deserves a 1, nothing.
This is what we achieve, and its a plus for all.
5. Now make a vote about if to do it or not, and let the users decide. if you do not, then you area nazi dictator.
let the vote run for 1 month, so all have time to vote, and put a private message in all users inbox, that he must remember to vote before the deadline.
and also send this reminder to the users email, whereever there exists one.
then we will accept to live with the outcome, and this discussion can be buried or rest a long time, before someone else is not satisfied and demands another vote on the subject.
6. about the vote system fail as a whole:
1987 campaign like newsletter, to encourage users to vote on their favorite stuff, in different categories. on a regular basis, sent by the system automaticly, direct to inbox and email. try to get people to vote instead of just giving up to fight for it.
this is just an idea, not thought through by me..
7. no more discussions, vote and live with result, now! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:the artist can ask any voter, "why do you like it so much ?"
or, "why do you hate it so much ?"
he will be likely to do this in private. whats the use to open a thread and write "hey Geir, why do you vote 4 for this ?" - it dont concern you, only the artist and geir.
ofcourse. everyone will be calm and mature and noone will start a topic to bitch and flame.
Quote:secondly, you can find downvoters.
unless its a basic demo with flashing bordercolors and a text saying "Hello World!" - nothing deserves a 1, nothing.
i bet i am not the only one who disagrees with that - and your statement demonstrates nicely why there are anonymous votes :)
Quote:then we will accept to live with the outcome, and this discussion can be buried or rest a long time, before someone else is not satisfied and demands another vote on the subject.
yeah, because in the real world, every time something is voted on, people totally agree on the result and all hapilly live after :o)
Quote:1987 campaign like newsletter, to encourage users to vote on their favorite stuff, in different categories. on a regular basis, sent by the system automaticly, direct to inbox and email. try to get people to vote instead of just giving up to fight for it.
in other words, send regular spam to everyone? great idea =P
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A Life in Hell
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 204 |
Quoting Jan HarriesAfter reading all this, here is my current analysis:
1. releases are art
Mine aren't. |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
Quote: Quoting Jan HarriesAfter reading all this, here is my current analysis:
1. releases are art
Mine aren't.
Yes they are.
Even though I was harsh considering the music of your Chase demo - I think you do some real wizardry of code.
Considering my comment... Man, really sorry for that - but still, that tune... :) I'd checked your stuff before and I liked them. Then, Syntax ended and there were the results - wow I said and ALIH demo as #1 - so I loaded the stuff, cranked up my rather powerful monitors: load, run, tune starts (the calm part) I cranked up the volume then came the digi part that blew my eyes out, 200W per side - FFFFFFFUUUUUUUU I said then wrote the comment immediately with bleeding eyes. I could not hear high freq well for days, man :D
Cheers, |
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A Life in Hell
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 204 |
Quoting NecroPoloYes they are.
No, they're not. In other news, I am not a doctor, and there is no such thing as time travel. |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
Quote: Quoting NecroPoloYes they are.
No, they're not. In other news, I am not a doctor, and there is no such thing as time travel.
Wanna talk about that? :)
I kicked your face - you kick mine.
Fair, accepted. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Groepaz, none of your remarks to my proposal bite me, you have been asked to create a vote, to vote if votes shall be public for all.
1. You said there is no majority.
2. you have 0 proof of this
3. so lets vote and see what is the truth
end of story, i am asking you to make a decision, not continue the discussion, its over. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting Jan HarriesGroepaz, none of your remarks to my proposal bite me, you have been asked to create a vote, to vote if votes shall be public for all.
1. You said there is no majority.
2. you have 0 proof of this
3. so lets vote and see what is the truth
end of story, i am asking you to make a decision, not continue the discussion, its over.
Hello?
For the nth time, some of you obviously missed it, but we already had that poll. And the majority said YES to public votes. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
I have an idea, lets vote on if we should vote about the votes again.
And then have a poll about if the voting on the voting for public votes should be public or anonymous.
But beware of the anonymous cowards downvoting the voting of the voting on voting or the poll of the polling and .. i forgot, what was this all about?
I still think we need a anonymous top 10 anonymous voter list. |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 620 |
Quote: yeah, a youtubeish instant system could produce more votes.
I certainly agree with you Oswald :) Vote a release by rating it by number of stars (annoymously) and calculate the overall score of votes that were made for the production underneath the overall vote. This would show how popular a release could be.
My idea would be to keep the the release comments but allow deletion of any unecessary spam/playground related behaviour from the comments page - if you are the creator of the entry. Or create a release and if you want no comments to your own release. Select "Don't allow comments for this entry". |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:
Hello?
For the nth time, some of you obviously missed it, but we already had that poll. And the majority said YES to public votes.
the majority of 20 people (if at all) that took part in a poll is NOT the majority of all users. really. infact such a poll is about as meaningless as the voting result for an entry that got 20 votes :)
also thats not how websites work. if you want fundamental things changed here, you have to convince perff. not me not the majority of users, only perff. and then he might still do it differently, with all right in the world, because it is his site.
but if you can show us a poll with atleast 800 csdb users participating, i am sure he will consider looking at it and thinking about it. as for the annual random blurbs on the topic by always the same people - he is probably ignoring it just like the majority of csdb users =P |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:My idea would be to keep the the release comments but allow deletion of any unecessary spam/playground related behaviour from the comments page - if you are the creator of the entry.
wtf? so the creator of an entry can delete all comments that he doesnt like? we should then allow him to delete votes he doesnt like too, shouldnt we?
even users beeing able to edit their very own comments is a constant source for ramblings, and i'd rather see this silly "feature" removed, instead of adding even more nonsense to create more uproar =) |
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V-12
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 206 |
I like the system on youtube - creator of entry can select if people can comment or/and vote for his release. It would be cool to have this feature here to prevent spam/downvoting etc. coz people are abusing comment field for discussing, chats, even writting about if tune was or wasn't ripped for hvsc. WTF? Database or what? :)
But still I'm not sure if voting system should be here. It;s funny to see how people vote 10 for pc conversions graphics etc :) or downvote because of personal reasons, not for the bad release. Everyone has his own taste, tastes should't be discussed or/and voted imho.
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting Groepaz
the majority of 20 people (if at all) that took part in a poll is NOT the majority of all users. really. infact such a poll is about as meaningless as the voting result for an entry that got 20 votes :)
I recall more than 20 votes on that poll, but whatever.
Considering the rest of your post, you're absolutely right and I've never said otherwise. Perff is the one who should have the final word on every aspect of the site.
And CSDb wouldn't really function without those who contributed to its growth in one way or another, but neither without its casual lurkers. What about at least considering their conceptions, even if not implementing them? The so-called "active users" who contribute more effectively than the rest are not the only ones who use CSDb.
The weight from the flawed votesystem actually lays on the back of those who upload new releases here and share their work. Well, in that matter, I understand why most of those "active users" don't care about, or comment on it's current state. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
"if you want fundamental things changed here, you have to convince perff. not me not the majority of users, only perff. and then he might still do it differently, with all right in the world, because it is his site."
Let's not get carried away and forget that this site incorporates also the work of the uploaders & the work need to create the content thats presented here or the money donated to keep the server running. ;) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting OswaldLet's not get carried away and forget that this site incorporates also the work of the uploaders & the work need to create the content thats presented here or the money donated to keep the server running. ;)
Spot on.
What about those who were putting out releases on a regular basis in the last 8 years and perhaps thought they're more interested in spending their time with creative stuff rather than populating the database? Its a low number compared to the top submitters, but I think I did my best with about 300 submits, still I'm not sure why I'm not as well entitled as an "active user" by Groepaz, although I have contributed to 100+ new releases since CSDb is online.
OK but enough of whining, here's an actual idea. :)
It'd probably need refinement, but what about letting to vote only for those who made a comment on the release?
First of all, since a user would have only one possibility to comment, it would incite a thoughtful reaction and by that, long discussion-threads on release pages would vanish and/or would be moved to the "CSDb Entries" forum, their intended place.
Secondly, it would hearten the objectivity of votes as you'd be forced to state your opinion before a vote, or vice versa.
Comments like "commenting just to vote" would be simply moderated out.
I don't say it would solve the whole "downvoting" problem, as one would still be able to say "wow great stuff" and then give a 1, but seems to me as a small step in a better direction, without infringing the anonymity of those who prefer it. Of course the main problem with it is that it isn't encouraging the increase of votes, but we'd never have enough votes for good stats anyway, so no big harm here. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
"one would still be able to say "wow great stuff" and then give a 1"
there it fails :)
I think V-12's proposal is the best: "creator of entry can select if people can comment or/and vote for his release" |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting Oswald"one would still be able to say "wow great stuff" and then give a 1"
there it fails :)
Right I realize that. I'm basing this on a conjecture that if a vote is connected to a comment, it would inspire people to vote more fairly. Of course that doesn't means downvoting will stop suddenly, but perhaps we'd lose a few. Not too much of an improvement but it's maybe better than nothing?
Quoting Oswald
I think V-12's proposal is the best: "creator of entry can select if people can comment or/and vote for his release"
I suggested exactly that three effin years ago, I could even quote the exact thread, what makes you think it will be implemented this time? :) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: Quoting OswaldLet's not get carried away and forget that this site incorporates also the work of the uploaders & the work need to create the content thats presented here or the money donated to keep the server running. ;)
Spot on.
What about those who were putting out releases on a regular basis in the last 8 years and perhaps thought they're more interested in spending their time with creative stuff rather than populating the database? Its a low number compared to the top submitters, but I think I did my best with about 300 submits, still I'm not sure why I'm not as well entitled as an "active user" by Groepaz, although I have contributed to 100+ new releases since CSDb is online.
OK but enough of whining, here's an actual idea. :)
It'd probably need refinement, but what about letting to vote only for those who made a comment on the release?
First of all, since a user would have only one possibility to comment, it would incite a thoughtful reaction and by that, long discussion-threads on release pages would vanish and/or would be moved to the "CSDb Entries" forum, their intended place.
Secondly, it would hearten the objectivity of votes as you'd be forced to state your opinion before a vote, or vice versa.
Comments like "commenting just to vote" would be simply moderated out.
I don't say it would solve the whole "downvoting" problem, as one would still be able to say "wow great stuff" and then give a 1, but seems to me as a small step in a better direction, without infringing the anonymity of those who prefer it. Of course the main problem with it is that it isn't encouraging the increase of votes, but we'd never have enough votes for good stats anyway, so no big harm here.
I like your idea, at least i can see the point in it fully!
Thats kinda how pouet works, which i like, except it cannot be used directly for ranking stuff. (too less votes to build real good numbers from)
at pouet you choose thumbs up/down, and then have a comment to 'explain' your view.
this seems rather easy digestable to me, you get more honest or thought over comments, to me it looks that way anyway. PLUS its public. so when i stand in the crowd and hear "what a bucket of crap!" i can see who said that, and directly say back "why ?" or "fuck off, get a life!" etc.
like i said, that way is encouraging more REVIEW type feeedback, than typical human "I JUDGE YOU!" feedback - and i just think that scene is a family, and we should encourage this nasty human treat away from us, because at any party i was too, we never ever have this kind of behaviour.
often human way to use a medium like internet where you can post whatever the hell kind of insanity on, anonymously, makes it all a big no brainer, where as when people take responsibility for their actions, they gain more respect and positive productive things are naturally enhanced.
the way a website works, has EVERYTHING to do with how its gonna be used.
if it encourages some behaviour by design, this behaviour will grow. (this is the kindergarten syndrome)
my whole crusade here and being agressive about it, is that i want to raise awareness of how the users create the system, and are not slave to some stiff computer tech which force them become bitching and moaning idiots, about how the system wont do as they desire it to do.
Look how user groups on facebook, protested against stiff rules and conducts by the 'system' whoever runs facebook, to preserve as much as possible of their possibility to not be slaves to the system. and they win, because somewhere inside facebook leaders are real humans, who are aware of these issues.
well well...
we all want the same thing, there is just so many ways to achieve it. |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
delete the voting option. fixed!
You can't compare Dutch Breeze to Edge of Disgrace and it's stupid to even try. I don't care if you're on the internet. Maybe everybody can get 10 votes to a category, if you make an eleventh vote, your number ten loses it's point.
Shitstirring belongs on facebook, we are all brothers here.. sure we are all the red haired stepchild, but brothers none the less. Also, cocks. |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
I would love to have another option in the "profession" select field that appears after hitting the vote button:
"Everything"
Makes up- and downvoting so much easier.
Also, selecting a group of people and cast the same vote to all of them would be great aswell.
Just my 2 cents. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
I'd like to note, that proposal was my idea. |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
Just the first part of it. Get a life!1 |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 226 |
I do like the many views upon the voting system here, but especially Jailbirds views which means that more should do their job in actually participating,
voting and occasionally giving their viewpoint, anonymously or not. But 5-40 votes for standalones is ridiculous if the download amount reaches 100++
and the comments are just as many.
Part from voting and talking I think people should release more. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quoting JoePart from voting and talking I think people should release more.
Yep... |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting JoePart from voting and talking I think people should release more.
Rite. I'm all for that. But is the current situation helping that cause? Especially, how it is helping the growth of the scene, when newbies come here and see (or experience in first person) the whole bullshit around the voting system.
And please don't tell me that none of you ever felt utterly annoyed (or at least slightly confused) when someone was nonchalantly placing a "1" to all of the releases you and/or your friends spent days, or weeks, or months, or years of work. That, without a single word of explanation.
Right, that's absolutely the best way to motivate anyone.
And then there are those who are hardly releasing anything, and defend the whole idiotic system by telling to ignore it when someone puts a huge turd infront of the face of those who are actually regurarly doing something for the scene.
Oh but wait, you release actively but still manage to ignore the shit? Well good for you, but clearly a lot of other sceners around here can't pass that with a calm gut. Just use the damn search and see for yourself how many topics there are about the flawed voting system, and no, definitely not always opened and commented by the very same people. Should I list all of them here to make a point?
Personally, I just got fed up.
And here's an idea TDJ once brought up: anonymous voters would be able to vote only in the range of, say, 4-7. Althought, I don't even know why I'm bringing it up, none of those really care who could actually do something about it.
I still think that the best solution is to dismiss the system as in its current state it has no real practical use, and it is not helping anyone, at all. And all the more the opposite. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote:And here's an idea TDJ once brought up: anonymous voters would be able to vote only in the range of, say, 4-7.
For the record: I came up with idea back in april 2002. So for those wondering why I haven't contributed to this thread until now: I've given up.
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
It's a cruel world. Less talk, more releases. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting The Dark JudgeI've given up.
Yeah, seems that the unfortunate strategy of the devs/mods considering the solution of this topic works very well. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting Stainless SteelIt's a cruel world. Less talk, more releases.
Believe me, the talk on the forum is amongst the least of the causes why I can't find the time to release more often.
By the way mister, what happened to your forum post count? :)
 |
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A Life in Hell
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 204 |
for me, voting is the #1 reason i don't release anything anymore. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: Quoting The Dark JudgeI've given up.
Yeah, seems that the unfortunate strategy of the devs/mods considering the solution of this topic works very well.
Heard.
I dont think i have more to say, its in the hands of the gods now.
Ive given up, i have a little hope, but thats all. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
"And please don't tell me that none of you ever felt utterly annoyed (or at least slightly confused) when someone was nonchalantly placing a "1" to all of the releases you and/or your friends spent days, or weeks, or months, or years of work. That, without a single word of explanation."
yeah, or what if they write negative comments! we should have the csdb police to monitor IRL all csdb activities with holding a gun to the head ppl who are browsing :) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
@Oswald: for once and for all, a negative comment or criticism isn't the same as sneaky, anonymous downvoting.
The anonymous downvotes here are almost without exceptions, done by passive-aggressive morons, with clearly bad intentions. Don't tell me that negative criticism is made in the same manner. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
so a negative comment on a release having been worked on for weeks, months, years, is not a turd in your face? ? :)
I recall Dane's jealous trolling on Desert Dream was really priceless. :) ("this demo doesnt deserves this hype", etc shit) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting Oswaldso a negative comment on a release having been worked on for weeks, months, years, is not a turd in your face? ? :)
Why would it be? And especially if the commenter explains to me why is he negative about the product. I could even learn from that, and I could accept that any time without a single spark of annoyance.
Well as long as no one will comment something like, "Dude, I hate you, your shitty face, your bloody works, I wish you wouldn't release here anything any more. I would piss on you if you'd be near me.", I'll be more than fine. :)
A negative comment is still very very far from a downvote. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting OswaldI recall Dane's jealous trolling on Desert Dream was really priceless. :) ("this demo doesnt deserves this hype", etc shit)
At least he had the guts to tell you that face to face.
You do realize that there is a slight difference between "I don't like this product because..." (most of the negative comments around here) and "I hate you, mutherfucker but I am too afraid to tell that in your face!!! But AARRRRGGH, nevertheless!!!" (what a downvote actually means), right?
Correct me if I'm wrong but I've never seen a "This is utter shit. Period."-like comment for a solid product. As that is kind of the equivalent for a "1" vote. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
The equation is simple: both negative comments and downvotes will hurt feelings. any type of feedback can. anonymous or not, thumb system or 1-10,whatever does not change this. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting OswaldThe equation is simple: both negative comments and downvotes will hurt feelings. any type of feedback can. anonymous or not, thumb system or 1-10,whatever does not change this.
The difference is, you could actually respond to a negative comment and you could defend your work if the comment is hurting you. A downvote is simply a slap and run.
A comment is a two-way interaction, a downvote is a passive-aggresive way to hurt the other.
Also note, not a single person boosted voice on the forum against negative comments yet, how's that? |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
thats what i been saying all along, that anonym vote takes away my possibility to defend my work against the ignorant or person who dont understand my work.
as releasing artist, i seek to make the audience understand my visions, in words, music, or visuals, combined or not.
the more interaction i have with the audience, the more fun.
anonym vote, and run away = no synergy |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Oswald, and you also tend to forget about our colleague who used the votesystem as a field for his rage filled revenge-campaign, and was even damn proud about it. In his defense, at least he wasn't anonymous. But we're talking about slight mental/social deficients here!
So don't tell me that downvoting the works without a reason (even non-anonymously) of someone you have disagreements with, is actually on the same level as a discussion, whether it's negative or not. I think that the former solution is simply dumb. |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
Just a thought: surely, you know this voting system:
Remix64
I think, it works pretty well in practice. Fewer people make more votes there.
Not much negative attitude in there and no anonymous personal revenge tours, though... |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
Quote: Oswald, and you also tend to forget about our colleague who used the votesystem as a field for his rage filled revenge-campaign, and was even damn proud about it. In his defense, at least he wasn't anonymous. But we're talking about slight mental/social deficients here!
So don't tell me that downvoting the works without a reason (even non-anonymously) of someone you have disagreements with, is actually on the same level as a discussion, whether it's negative or not. I think that the former solution is simply dumb.
actually I have ~10 active downvotes myself aswell :) I dont think this is mental/social defect, people are different. I'm part of the crowd who takes things often too seriously, but grew old enough to see that. Everyone else should do so, and stop whining. Defending your release in the comments or pms is also one thing you should not do, because its just stupid. Yes I have done that too. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting OswaldEveryone else should do so, and stop whining.
Riiight. Easy to say, yet impossible to realize in practice.
The endless wining is caused by a flawed votesystem.
Your, or Groepaz's solution is to somehow change the people who feel injured by it, force the whole shit down their throat until they get totally full, dull, uninterested, and finally get used to it as a necessary bad.
My solution is to change or dismiss the system which is causing the constant uproars, by pressing some buttons.
So tell me, which solution is faster, more realistic or efficient without continuing to hurt the community? |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
go and convince Perff. I'm not against changing the system, I just say I dont think it will have the desired effect. It may lower the negative stuff, but it will not go away.
btw is the downvoting really such a huge problem? what was the last time you saw it happen? |
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
I agree with Stainless Steel. This thread is about 400% too long. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting Oswaldbtw is the downvoting really such a huge problem? what was the last time you saw it happen?
Well I'm not directly affected by the downvoting (yet), at least as far as I'm aware (I'm not checking the votes on me or my releases daily, right). I've had a downvote-stalker years ago, but he either changed/removed his votes or the user got deleted.
But I see downvotes here and there on new releases, every 3-4 months a topic pops up, and people do talk about it. So yes, it's a problem.
Anyway, you're right. Why the hell I'm actually advocating the improvement of the votesystem at all?
Wait I know. Cursing out loudly and looking on the screen with an annoyed/shocked/dumb face expression looks exactly like I was very busy with my tasks @ the office, so this way I could easily get away from doing actual work whilst not thinking too much, and just typin shit and stuff on CSDb during the whole goddamn day.
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
please makez az wouté-zystem wizh nomberz from -236572 to 12839723752.237881 !!!!!1
End of thread!
Game Over !
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Ed
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 173 |
When this post is written, the amount of voters are 1775 and together make up the sum of 74842 votes. At the current Csdb consists of 81190 releases. This means that there are not enough of voters and votes made to make all of the csdb releases carry their weightened vote. In fact that only theoretically covers for about 14968 releases, since the system is based upon that 5 voters give their votes all together. That's about 18% of all the csdb releases. Think about it!
Now to make things even worse we all know that far from every release have even got that attention and since there are only 1775 active voters, and most of them have only given away some aprox 40+ votes that does not make up to much. To simply state the obvious: people are good at talking much, worse at producing change.
I have for my own part voted on 8793 releases, which only covers about 10% of all the database of releases and requires at least four more people to equally vote on all those 10% in order for the charts to actually change. My votes are not making much change, except for in some cases those small productions that have not gotten that much of votes. Of course, with the current weightened algorithm, that is both as true as it is a lie.
Now. The way I see it, there are many different tactics to get around with the current vote system. One way would simply to change the amount of voters necessary in order for a release to get a weighted vote. For instance, instead of 5 people, with ten votes many of the releases that are on csdb now, would fall out of the charts completely. Others would still stay in the same chart position as they are now (with all those down- and upvotes, cowardvotes, friendpoints or whatever you decide to call it.) Probably not so much of a win-win-situation there for anyone.
If the amount of votes would be changed to one instead, then as I have shown at least in theory we could cover about 92% of the csdb releases. Not sure that would give much either, since it would make the charts list extremely large. And considering how the algorithm works, not sure it would give that much back. So back to square one. How to deal with the problem that causes so much emotional pain ?
Showing off the votes, would clearly give a good hint of what some of the most active voters think , but considering that there are only about some 135 people that actually bothered to click and vote on some 100 different releases, it would not give so much. If we look at some of the top demos, and images. There are not more than aprox 200 votes anyways for the top productions, which clearly tells us something about the diversity and heterogenity of our community. Showing off the votes public or not would still not change the fact that there are releases that have been given the vote 1.
So what about changing the algorithm of the weighened vote? One way would be to consider stuff like amount of downloads, amount of voters that actually cared enough to vote, and what they voted. But then the more complex the formula grow, how much more would it give back to the users and the community as a whole? A release with about 1 download but with some odd 50+ votes, would clearly only show that most people where too lazy to download it but probably only checked the release via the website (for instance a image) or perhaps it could be explained by the fact that the release was older and therefor already been a part of our collective memory (both in it's more literal but also metaphoric sense). Another example is where you have a release that has been downloaded for aprox 500 times, but only with about some 20 voters. It could of course be explained with the lack of local storage needs.
Anyways. Just check the numbers. They are all in the database.. I hope this will give you something . Thank you for your attention. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
OMG Ed, even the density of your text made my head hurt, I'm afraid of actually reading it.
Edit: okay read it. This is why Enthusi's idea would work the best here.
Once again:
Quoting enthusiEach CSDb-scener has alist of 5 (or 10) all-time-fav demos/gfx/crack/tools (or just releases).
Those are public :) [though that is not necessary for this system]
The Top 10 of each category is generated daily based on the overall number a release appears in one of those lists.
So if 100 people have DeuxExMachine in their top5 this is better than a demo that only 90 people consider their personal top5.
This will give weight to old releases as well and nothing will/can be downvoted...
I see no point in differing between VERY bad and VERY VERY bad like it is now...
We need a BESTOF and that's all...
Downvoting will then be equal to NOT having a demo in his/her own list ;-)
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Ed
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 173 |
Quote: OMG Ed, even the density of your text made my head hurt, I'm afraid of actually reading it.
Edit: okay read it. This is why Enthusi's idea would work the best here.
Once again:
Quoting enthusiEach CSDb-scener has alist of 5 (or 10) all-time-fav demos/gfx/crack/tools (or just releases).
Those are public :) [though that is not necessary for this system]
The Top 10 of each category is generated daily based on the overall number a release appears in one of those lists.
So if 100 people have DeuxExMachine in their top5 this is better than a demo that only 90 people consider their personal top5.
This will give weight to old releases as well and nothing will/can be downvoted...
I see no point in differing between VERY bad and VERY VERY bad like it is now...
We need a BESTOF and that's all...
Downvoting will then be equal to NOT having a demo in his/her own list ;-)
Yeah. I guess going back to how votes worked in ze good old days will make us all happy... :)
Did anybody check how imdb does it?
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
By the way Ed, excellent analysis. A perfect showdown on why the current votesystem is totally obscure and useless, and will never work as intended even in 20 years.
Quoting EdDid anybody check how imdb does it?
Let me guess. With thousands of users and perhaps millions of votes? |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 226 |
...I'd wish the disc-magazines returned with the Charts as well... |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 226 |
...I'd wish the disc-magazines returned with the Charts as well... |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting Joe...I'd wish the disc-magazines returned with the Charts as well...
Yeah, and nifty snailmail votesheets! |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
how about this: only thumb ups, the more the better. downvoting is impossible :) |
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TWW
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 543 |
Quote: how about this: only thumb ups, the more the better. downvoting is impossible :)
WHAT NO DOWNWOTING???
 |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
If you really dont like a demo/release, make an anti-demo!
Edit: Oh, yeah and support the idea of TOP-lists per user.
That system could be initiated with a database wide SPAM message asking for (up to) 5 releases in the categories:
- demo
- tune
- tool
- crack
- gfx
I guess everyone has at least 3 of each in the back of his head... |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
5 is not enough, I'd need smth like 10-20 to get in my faves to each cat. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
ENTHUSI AND OSWALD YOU POOR, WORTHLESS HUMANOID FOOLS!
LOOK WHAT HAVE YOU DONE! YOUR SENSELESS CHIT-CHAT HAS RESULTED AN EXPLOSION IN ЯOBOBIRD'S DELICATE SARCASM DETECTOR. ЯOBOBIRD IS NOT PLEASED!
NOT PLEASED AT ALL!
BOTH OF YOU WILL BE SENTENCED TO DEATH WITHOUT ЯOBOTRIAL AND EXECUTED BY ЯOBOBIRD'S POWERFUL LASER EYES, ASAP!
ЯOBOBIRD HAS SPOKEN.
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
Quote:ASAP!
nothing to fear... |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493 |
Quoting giant beeYou are all idiots. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
thanks to ed for pushing the discussion into a more useful direction...
i think he showed the problem quite well. there are maybe a few hundred people who actually vote (and not even half of them vote regulary or even a lot) and then there are ten-thousends entries (if we count scener- and group- and whatever entries too, probably hundred thousend already) in the database.
i like the "favourites" idea myself too... but i dont know if its a good idea to actually replace the voting system with it, because to get meaningful numbers out of it it would require *more* people to maintain their favourites list than it currently requires people to vote. it will certainly work better for "charts" - and at the same time work a lot worse than now for individual entries. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
before i forget it, i had another silly idea the other day, which some people might like however :o)
what about weighting someones individual votes by the max value of what the got voted for their own releases ? like... if someones best rated release got a 6, he can vote 5+/-3 ... if someone has a release rated 10, he gets the full range, etc.
it might give some interisting numbers atleast :) |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1065 |
Haha, that's the most interesting voting proposal I've heard in a long time. |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
So only losers are allowed to downvote?
What's new? :)
About fav-list, why REPLACE the old system? |
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assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
Quoting Groepazit might give some interisting numbers atleast :)
aswell as csdb accounts of rob hubbard,martin galway and afew other highly voted sceners :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
"About fav-list, why REPLACE the old system?"
well, before we introduce completely new features, we should fix whats there :) making it completely seperate and additionally to whats there wouldnt gain much imho, and not fix anything at all :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
Thrust Concert [1986]
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=2094
this demo is heavily upvoted!! something not working here the way it should. And yet, the cry ups keep getting ignored. For years!!!!!!!!!!11111 |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
that entry got 10 freaking votes, cant see how any "upvoting" is involved there. quite the contrary is true, applying some of the "logic" suggested in this thread, this entry could just aswell serve as an example of downvoting.
no really. with just 10 votes you cant tell either. the numbers are simply meaningless, no more no less.
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting OswaldThrust Concert [1986]
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=2094
this demo is heavily upvoted!! something not working here the way it should. And yet, the cry ups keep getting ignored. For years!!!!!!!!!!11111
*sigh*
No need for ridiculing, really. The topic was opened as the votesystem isn't working regardless if people vote up or down.
And that's just another example.
The solution?
Quoting enthusiEach CSDb-scener has alist of 5 (or 10) all-time-fav demos/gfx/crack/tools (or just releases).
Those are public :) [though that is not necessary for this system]
The Top 10 of each category is generated daily based on the overall number a release appears in one of those lists.
So if 100 people have DeuxExMachine in their top5 this is better than a demo that only 90 people consider their personal top5.
This will give weight to old releases as well and nothing will/can be downvoted...
I see no point in differing between VERY bad and VERY VERY bad like it is now...
We need a BESTOF and that's all...
Downvoting will then be equal to NOT having a demo in his/her own list ;-) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
nah just having fun. take this as my excuse:
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
that can only be used to create better "charts" though. it doesnt fix the problem with individual results for individual entries at all (infact, it would make it worse, a lot even) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
IMHO, charts would be more than enough. |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
I can see that system would work well for overall charts, though for individual releases I quite like getting votes. I'm not bothered about occasional down votes, whether it's consistent with other similar releases or if there are enough votes to create a true reflection. I simply find it interesting to see what individual people think of something I created. |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
we are getting somewhere :)
charts would work that way (see above) I think.
Charts should reflect what really rules ;-)
While votes - as in "do people like this" are something
completely different. For votes its ok to give 1 or 10.
Usually downvoters dont like the release indeed ;-)
Then the system could simply average again (or rather use the median). |
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Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1674 |
I've been following this thread in silence for some time now (havn't read all posts though!)
But now I'll speak up! (Let me know if I say something stupid, or repeat what others already said. ;) )
What I hear is that a votingsystem as we have today will never work for real, as we don't have a gazillion users who all vote.
Stuff can be added to filter out obvious crap-voters (I try doing that already), and min no. of votes can be set higher to avoid entries pupping up on 1st place with only a few votes.
I agree, but still I personally like the voting system. In general I think it works ok enough. There will always be exceptions, but hey - where can't you find that? :)
Ideas to trim the system is always welcome. I thought about setting min no. of votes up from 5 to 10. Not much, but still.. ?
Perhaps doing something to get more to vote?
Then I can sense that the idea about an all-time-fav list is liked here?
If it's made it will not replace the current ratings, as I think this system has one big flaw. It only regards the very best releases. Mid-class stuff will never apear on any all-time-fav list, and will therefor not get rated at all, and that is a shame I think.
So this would only mention the very best of things, but this could still be interresting.
I've been working a bit on such a system, but I need to clear out a few things first.
My idea is that there will be some "Add release to my fav-list" on all release-pages. Some kind of gfx-button would be nice. Anyone out there who can make something?
Also we need a "Remove release from my fav-list" thing (also some gfx would be nice).
How many entries should you be able to add to your list? 10? 20?
Should the list be split into categories? (demos, gfx, cracks, etc) or should it just be one big pool? (If yes, which categories?)
Hm.. Well. Thats about it I think. :)
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
I agree.
Votes for a release-specific rating and my(tm) idea for all-time charts.
I would prefer max of 20 entries but other than that an arbitrary number (0-20).
Also Id prefer 6 separate categories, but only main ones.
1) demo
2) crack
3) gfx (only one for all formats!)
4) SID
5) tool (incl. cross platform)
6) game
For further reference I call this proposal
enthusi_1.0 *g*
The sixth category is limited to scene releases.
I admit this one is discussable.
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
Quote:min no. of votes can be set higher to avoid entries pupping up on 1st place with only a few votes.
I am all for it. Setting the minimum number of votes to 10 should already improve the system quite a bit.
Quote:Perhaps doing something to get more to vote?
As others pointed out, one should be able to vote directly without being taken to another page. It´s 2009 after all, so maybe you could think about implementing an AJAX solution :) Not sure if that would be enough to seriously raise the number of votes, tho.
What about adding some sort of infobox that appears when a user has not voted for a release yet aswell?
Quote:Then I can sense that the idea about an all-time-fav list is liked here?
If it's made it will not replace the current ratings, as I think this system has one big flaw. It only regards the very best releases. Mid-class stuff will never apear on any all-time-fav list, and will therefor not get rated at all, and that is a shame I think.
I can only second that.
While you´re at it ... I would very much like to be able to vote for .sid entries aswell :) Having some sort of sid chart would be quite interesting, I think. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
It's really great to see some progress here. Especially happy to finally see a response from Perff. Thanks.
Since you made it obvious that you don't want to dismiss the current votesystem, I'd definitely welcome the increase of minimal number of votes for the average calculation. And thinking further on this, how about setting a minimal number of votes for getting into the Top 10 (a similar idea that IMDb does with Top 250) to the average number of all the votes in the category? So lets say, a release would need 7.6 votes to enter the Top 10 area on a release-list with 15 entries and 115 votes. That would eliminate the highly upvoted releases with much less votes than the average release in the category, to suddenly jump into the Top 10. By just looking on the number of votes, that would mean that a release would need at least ~35 votes to get on the Top Demo list. Considering that most of the (popular) demos have at least 30-40 votes, that's quite a fair number. So we'd never seen something like the Thrust Concert appearing on the Top 10 (even it has more than 10 votes)
Considering filtering out the unusual votes. I don't know if you've implemented this yet: filtering out not just the unusually too low/high votes from a certain release, but also filtering out the votes from those users who have an unusual number of too low/high votes without a natural spread around the mid-range. That won't help all the time, right, but could help in some special cases. Edit: just popped into my mind, this would filter out Groepaz, so he'll probably oppose this idea =)
Considering the rest, I second Enthusi and Linus. Except the AJAX thing. :) That won't work too well on boxes with FF/NoScript or simply turned of JS support.
If you haven't found anyone yet, I'd be happy to help out with graphics.
And for all those who were thinking it's "cool" to bitch about the long thread, please keep it to yourself next time. Or wait till we open a similar giganto-topic about the need for tags :) *message sponsored by Oswald |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
agreed,
BUT:
why filter out votes?
Once there is an all-time-best chart we dont need that:
vote 1 == I dont like it - no matter if its a 'down'vote
vote 10 == I like it, even if its his/her own groupmate |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting enthusiagreed,
BUT:
why filter out votes?
Once there is an all-time-best chart we dont need that:
vote 1 == I dont like it - no matter if its a 'down'vote
vote 10 == I like it, even if its his/her own groupmate
Wait, so your idea, the all time best would actually replace the old votesystem? Or the charts and the (improved) old votesystem would co-exist? How many types of charts would we have around here? Honestly, I don't follow any more =) |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
2 systems in parallel.
1) best-of charts based on fav-list
2) rating for each release (more or less like before) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Ah, I get it.
Well, the "unnatural-vote" filtering already exists on releases so the idea I proposed would only make it a tiny bit better (if at all), but I see your point. Fine with me, then. |
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Stone
Registered: Oct 2006
Posts: 170 |
I think this all depends on what you want from the votesystem. This is obviously going to be something different for everybody. Since I've been away from the scene for many many years, I would like to see what I've missed out on. So all-time top-lists (more than top 10) for demos, sids (categorized perhaps?) and so on would be a good starting point. As I start voting myself, I could perhaps have scores weighted for instance by groups/composers that I like (determined by my voting record) or that I would potentially like (determined by the voting record of others with similar taste to my own). What you would get from this is a sort of perzonalized top-list, probably similiar to how online stores and music sites make recommendations for you.
Come to think of it, this has more to do with search functionality than the actual voting system... Well, never mind, just brainstorming. |
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yonx
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 31 |
perhaps this could be something
http://www.thebroth.com/blog/118/bayesian-rating
it compensates for lack of votes by weighing releases with few votes towards the site-average thus making downvotes on such productions less powerful, works pretty good where i have seen it in action.. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:Considering filtering out the unusual votes. I don't know if you've implemented this yet: filtering out not just the unusually too low/high votes from a certain release, but also filtering out the votes from those users who have an unusual number of too low/high votes without a natural spread around the mid-range. That won't help all the time, right, but could help in some special cases. Edit: just popped into my mind, this would filter out Groepaz, so he'll probably oppose this idea =)
two thing:
a) i know how the filtering works, and i know that a lot of my votes ARE filtered already :) infact i could give my votes 100% more statistical impact by dileberatly voting differently, but i dont care enough really :)
b) i am still very much against filtering. it doesnt help much at all, and its a big statistical nono too. with 10 votes on an entry, filtering wont make the numbers less meaningless =P
another thing that hasnt been mentioned yet: there is another big flaw in the system.... people can see the result of the votes before they voted themselves. that should be changed, if you didnt vote on something, then you shouldnt be able to see the result at all. this might also increase the number of people who actually vote :) oh and, you obviously shouldnt be able to change your vote either, thats kinda stupid. (or make it so that you can change it only after some weeks or so)
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
a) make the faves list have 20 entries, I can easily fill that with demos and sids.
b) no filtering
c) let me se other's faves
d) making voting more easyer would make me vote more often, currently its awkward. :) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quoting Groepaza) i know how the filtering works, and i know that a lot of my votes ARE filtered already :) infact i could give my votes 100% more statistical impact by dileberatly voting differently, but i dont care enough really :)
Right, I also realized that since the filtering function was implemented a 3/4 or 8/9 often serves similarly fine as a down/upvote when a 1 or 10 is not registered thanks to the filter.
Quoting Groepazpeople can see the result of the votes before they voted themselves. that should be changed, if you didnt vote on something, then you shouldnt be able to see the result at all. this might also increase the number of people who actually vote :)
Great idea, I wouldn't mind to see this implemented as well.
Quoting Groepazoh and, you obviously shouldnt be able to change your vote either, thats kinda stupid. (or make it so that you can change it only after some weeks or so)
I often change a vote when a certain release grows on me. But yes, I make up my mind during weeks or months or years. So yes, I kinda dig this idea as well. |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
Quote:Considering the rest, I second Enthusi and Linus. Except the AJAX thing. :) That won't work too well on boxes with FF/NoScript or simply turned of JS support.
There are ways to downgrade gracefully in less-capable browsers, that shouldn´t be much of a problem. |
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Ed
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 173 |
I recently came across this. Not that it might bring anything new to the discussion, but it's more of a noteworthy reminder. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
This is a great thread, for some reason I've re-read it. You should too.
Edit: Up is a fucking fine movie! :) |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 494 |
2-3 years is not enuf for nostalgia. i do already remember most of the conversation. i'll re-read this thread 7-8 years later. :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
"a playground for immature ding-dong fights" - i think we should replace the csdb tagline by that one =) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Fuck, I was searching for the like button on Groepaz's comment. Internet has ruined me :(
OK, I'm off to shave my head in a lonely shame. |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
I think we should implement the possibility to vote for forum threads as well! ;) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Good idea. Finally I'd be #1 somewhere |
