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Carrion
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 317 |
all the magic just goes away
with this video....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU5Dn-WaElI
I was hoping somehow that Liam/The Prodigy does the sounds himself.
But know all my religion is wasted...
It's somehow like with Timanthes... You never know what is converted and what is origianl - right ? ;) |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Well, some people just make things seem very easy. Still there is a lot of work to find the samples you need and find out how to process them, before it's all put together. |
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Cresh
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 354 |
There was no Ableton in 1997. :)
And yes. It's about samples and cut&paste.
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 231 |
awesome.. that guy REALLY knows how to handle his ableton. stunning stuff to watch, what an outcome! |
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chancer
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 346 |
he knows how to handle ableton.. give him an akai 900 or 950 / c-lab or cubase and an atari ST, and it's not so easy..
back then.. it was a lot more tricky to do stuff.. this is coming back from 88-89.. even at that time, people had just started using macs with system 7 for music, till maybe 97 or so..
a big part as much as making the tune is the crate digging.. so yer it makes it look more easy than it is..
and the joke... stuff from back then.. sounds better than a fair bit of whats out today. prodigy, I didn't like their later stuff, and well now there is pendulum aka prodigy jnr etc.. tired BS
thing is.. thats not how it was exactly made, it's guess work.. so the magic is still there.
comparing it to art.. hhmm well folk like SIT could do killer pics LONG before pc porting was around..much like folk have it easier with music stuff. |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
Without sounding like a prick, Liam Howlett is a talentless hack, how the hell he can get away with the same bassline for so long is beyond me. Unfortunately you can't even say he uses original samples either. Look at Prodigy's No Good (start the dance), okay the sample is taken from a commercial song from 10 or so years prior to the tune, but about six months before no good was released Liquid Crystal (N.R.G) put out this which was an anthem in the uk (afaik) and australia. I'm not alone in thinking it's not only bad business but playing off the success of another track using the same sample. Here in the .au this tune sparked Prodigy into the mainstream, enfuriating tunespotters and grumpy bum's like me even to this day.
Sorry, but Charly was the only respectable tune they have ever done :/ Dude just samples good bits from underground tunes waaay to much. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
I never liked Prodigy.
There was 1000+ more talented MOD composers, cutting up samples, making own sounds, and tracking. A lot more work in a high grade MOD than in any Prodigy track. |
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pvcf
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 18 |
sorry dudes.
if you can reproduce something, doesnt means you can do the same like the inventer.
its the same as you can watch someone plays a nice melody on piano and call him lame by learning the same melody and play this too.
(oh, and dont forget to make a movie of you playing piano)
i could say that no one of the tools exist in 1996, but it doesnt cares! if prodigy takes some pieces and stick it together, a absolut new song and beat shows the light.
its the structure of his music (and massive attack for other example) to use samples. he also have used synthesizers, i keep an eye at him since nearly 15 years, to his gear, to his work, and all what can i say: this guy is the god of beat and actionmusic. he invented a absolut new style.
so, after watching the funny video, i'm very impressed: try to getting out such a great track out of those short sampled wav's.
as always on music: it mostly depends on the melody and rhytmus, not on the instrument and the way its be played!
(btw prodigy is THE master in playing with samples)
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
Well i'm going to see Rennie P on saturday night and Prodigy could have 100 years and not even come close to this guy.
Ask Streetuff, Rhythm Section all day. :) |
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pvcf
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 18 |
who is Rennie P ? did i miss something? |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 476 |
Quote: who is Rennie P ? did i miss something?
wtf! you sure did, especially in the early 90s =) |
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pvcf
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 18 |
omg, at this time i was sitting the whole day on c64 and have composed all the day ;)
thats the bad thing to be an musician, you can't listen music during work ^^
did you have any links/songnames for me regarding rennie P ? |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quoting fadeWithout sounding like a prick, Liam Howlett is a talentless hack
failed. You do sound like a huge prick! 8) |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Say what you like, but the guy in the video sure knows his shit. |
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chancer
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 346 |
pvcf, how much of the 4hero and reinforced e.g. doc scott , manix etc have you heard?
just curious...thats the whole thing.. prodigy were the poster boys of hardcore back in the day.while NW / west London where I'm from was one of the roots..foremost for Reinforced probably and then production house / kickin etc were also around.
I would say Liam is very good at crate digging and engineering foremost, though. I wouldn't say prodigy were consistantly good though, notice how they have gone back to their hardcore roots on some of their songs? . I do like other people / groups moreso who I feel are more inventive, but hey thats all personal taste.
ok.. in 93 this was released.. when samplers had **** all memories and it was done on an ST..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hv8cdgmMDY&feature=related
yep.. time stretching / pitch shifting.. now, well you can do that easily within seconds.. back then it was a case of effecting a sample.. bouncing it out to DAT, then back into the sampler.
so yep there were plenty more around doing crediable things, just they got known moreso. I guess it's what folk know or are exposed to.. I know Tuffy and a few more, knows some of the older dance tunes.. but I'm sure they had to go looking for them.
the guy in the video knows his stuff.. BUT , it's like me making a recipe from scratch or reading it from a book.. either he had a list of the samples used.. or sussed them.. if you crate dig, well a fair few of them songs are well known and not really obscure. comparing studio stuff from 97 to 2010 is a different matter... what took lots of minutes on an akai sampler, is done in 2 seconds in ableton etc
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Pathetic boys.. sigh... this is a bit of a waste of time, if you ask me :-)
Fade: Even though that tune might have been first, before Prodigy's, it does sound a lot more ghey ;-)
Jan: You are too old for Prodigy, sorry :-)
I agree with Stainless Steel.
Besides, most of Prodigy's is meant as party-music, where people go a bit crazy, whether they are on drugs or not.
Has been a pleasure listening to their music for me and many of my friends.
Not saying that it's the best music ever though. |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
Now... Carrion got very excited about the video, it is posted by him also on other forums, so I already wrote a lot in Polish on the subject ;) but will gladly repeat myself a bit.
I don't want to go into discussion about the talent of Liam or the lack of it, because imho this is a bit irrelevant here. But as for the video itself, I agree with PVCF. Cannot compare this guy to the original creator of the track. It does not impress me (that much ;D), because reproducing the track in this way is not something as difficult as one may think.
First of all, sourcing the samples. Due to copyright reality, in most cases sample sources are included in liner notes for the releases.
Now, the effects applied. For this case you just hear that this one has been timestretched, the other one heavily chorused etc. And to find the appropriate settings for the effects, you do tweak the knobs until you get it right. For that you need just a lot of time, not talent ;)
Now, I would not take from the guy the fact that he is apparently a very skilled sound engineer. But that's it. This is the shit that makes for him this re-engineering much easier ;) For me, this is like watching a video of a guy painting a copy of Gioconda. Kudos for him if he gets it right, but he's no Leonardo :)
One thing I cannot agree - sorry PVCF - is that in 1996 there were no tools. Ableton Live is an awesome tool with amazing features (I have been using it since version 1.0 for my live performances), but it is still mostly a sequencer. And in 1997 Cubase has already been around for 8 years as a powerful tool for a studio musician. Of course, back then you needed a MIDI driven hardware sampler with it (and now you can have the sampler inside the sequencer), but this '96 combo (Cubase+sampler) was not much less powerful for creation of such a track, as 2009 Ableton is. But yes, the SIMPLICITY of doing certain things is completely different.
Oh hey, and by the way, respects to the mentioned Rennie Pilgrem, Doc Scott, UK hardcore scene. Without them I would not be doing my shit now :) but the same goes to The Prodigy. Like their stuff or not, they were the agents of change in the genre. Period. For example, for a lot of metal/punk heads like myself, they were the bridge to the Dark Side (of techno). ;) |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
I always liked, Voodoo People (theres a good C64 cover somewhere) and No Good (start the dance). Fire Starter was ok. (from the new album) Invaders Must Die, Omen, Take Me to the Hospital, Warriors Dance are just excellent :D |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
I've never liked The Prodigy and I don't want to get into the rights and wrongs of Liam Howlett, but when it comes to making music from samples, I think it's just as valid as using any other kind of instrument. You're still combining lots of parts to make something that's completely different, not anyone can do it. Same goes for using Live, Logic, Cubase or whatever. It might make the process a bit easier, but you still have to have the ideas in the first place.
Anyway, thanks for posting the video Carrion, I've been using Ableton Live for a few years now (my music's nothing like this I might add!), so it's been interesting and perhaps also inspiring to see. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
And fuck all the haters. Prodigy kicked some major ass. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
outer space is the best one from them for me. :) |
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chancer
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 346 |
and the funny thing about it ....
Liam is / was a reason and Ableton user.. I think he uses Live in a "live" environment..
if you know of prodigy at the start.. and nothing of the underground hardcore and jungle scene.. then yer you'd think it was unique.. but that's to do with marketing.. others were front runners..
check out the early 4hero and manix / Reinforced tracks, the Acen / Production house ones.. etc etc
if you like the earlier prodigy stuff, say the first album. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
probably there was a reason that prodigy made it and not the others. ...and that was not marketing, marketing does not make good music, prodigy does.
it gets really silly, just like when people try to claim amiga/atari (8bit)/speccy failed bcoz of marketing... |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2968 |
The reason may be luck, too. And possibly also that somebody came up with the idea to call it "electro punk", which i think is one of the most stupid, pretentious and ridiculous labelings for a musical genre ever. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
Quote:And possibly also that somebody came up with the idea to call it "electro punk", which i think is one of the most stupid, pretentious and ridiculous labelings for a musical genre ever.
imho it describes their stuff (atleast the stuff they made when that label was inventzed) quite well :) it's also what brought them to my and many others attention :) |
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Street Tuff
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 88 |
Quote: outer space is the best one from them for me. :)
i prefer the original!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORJBFI_OLdU |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Quote: i prefer the original!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORJBFI_OLdU
the "original" is 2 lines from a sucky boring reggae, I wouldnt listen to it for 20 seconds, not 20 years like in the case of prodigy's one(and counting) |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
Quote: i prefer the original!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORJBFI_OLdU
I agree |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1646 |
Everybody is in the place (not the album version) |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Actually for me that video does not kill Liam Howlett's magic, it rather helps to illustrate it! ;-D
Prodigy rocks, always has, always will! Experience is still my fave album, but I really dig their back to the roots approach on the new album, too! If you dig Prodigy I should mention that there's a lot of B-sides that are quite cool, i collected all their singles ever since Jazzcat once sent me a tape with rare prodigy stuff (which was mostly B-sides!)
Speaking of Prodigy on CSDB i should mention that i find quite a few things on their new "Invaders must die" album rather "SIDish": Omen & Omen Reprise, Colors, Warrior's Dance (hell yeah! Promo version only though!). And I swear to god that Liam used a Hubbard-Drum at the end of "Phoenix" on "Never Outgunned"! ;-D
P.S: Does he sing "I'm the king of migraine" or "I'm the king of margarine" on "Phoenix"? <:-) |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Indeed, the magic isn't killed, it is revealed!
Cool stuff, very inspirational.
Also, like others said, it's not how he DOES it, it's how he CAME UP with it that makes it original.
If you like it, is another ball game.
And oh, perhaps Ableton didn't exist, but you can do this with any wave editor and a few plugins.
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chancer
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 346 |
Quote: probably there was a reason that prodigy made it and not the others. ...and that was not marketing, marketing does not make good music, prodigy does.
it gets really silly, just like when people try to claim amiga/atari (8bit)/speccy failed bcoz of marketing...
thats the whole point.. it WAS marketing.. I grew up in the area this "sound" was kicking off in , know some of the pioneers... if your telling me ya know of know of prodigy's first album and not other labels
e.g. shut up and dance.. warrior dance was once I was visiting when I was 17 , so 20 years ago.. they were doing the "prodigy" sound LONG before prodigy were..
just because they aren't well known out of london / UK then thats part of it.
fast forward to that punk electro sound.. well yer liam listed to the pistols etc.. but go listen to the edgier tech step sound etc. also..
Liam did get lucky with the song Charley.. he knows how to crate dig , his engineering is good, but others were better at the time. i.e. what they did with the equipment (samplers) and not just the sound aspect.
If you were in London in 88 / 89 then cool, but not some 3rd party "rose tinted glasses" version that got told later.
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
Some year ago or so I posted here on this forum that everyone steals and borrows and that Rob Hubbard were a great prove to this. A lot told me that I were a fool stating something like this... well... were I? To me it is cool that he used the tunes and melodies and inspirations he did because of that he made it special for me in my little life. It is about creating really fun projects for oneself to be occupied in, that is the whole point with life I guess. If it is dull and no fun what is the point then? What is fun for one is fun for him even others think it is really horrible to do so...
About that prodigy thing... I think that tune they released there were so cool, and with the video to it it were just one of the coolest things that year... Thumbs up... even now when I see all that sample thingys I think it were almost even more splendid show of creative force, and man, maybe one dude played around with different samples and created that, how cool is that? Very cool I think! We all do the copycat thing in a way or another I guess... on a level we all do it... Sampler scanner photo painting poster sound use of elements or inspiration, a feeling something gave me, a mood, a moment, a style or what... where do one draw the line? Where is it taken from something else? Where is the bar for where it is original or not, creative or not? I do not know!
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1646 |
Couldn't help wondering if PAL has reflected upon the fact that a substantial number of people here are/was pirates/crackers/swappers etc. It is not like stealing stuff is never heard of, or so. :)
No offence, PAL (of Offence. ;) Just had to point it out. |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
I have often reflected upon the fact that a substantial number of people here are/was pirates/crackers/swappers etc. and it is so strange to me the harsh words often stated here... magic all gone my arse! |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Aw christ stop it with all the envy-laden bullshit talk "Liam is a talentless hack because he got rich and famous and i failed" its really getting stale. Get over it already.
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
DeeKay: huh! completely forgot about that stuff I sent you. Must have been 15 years ago or so?
My favourite tripping track of early Prodigy is "Weather Experiment". That really takes me places!
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 461 |
(Oswald wrote: the "original" is 2 lines from a sucky boring reggae)
it's a genre-defining song, overclassic, dude. you don't have to like it but show some respect at least for chrissakes :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11350 |
"it's a genre-defining song, overclassic, dude. you don't have to like it but show some respect at least for chrissakes :)"
i should have edited it into "dutch breeze sucks" or sth =P |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Hey, dutch breeze did suck. big time. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Quote: (Oswald wrote: the "original" is 2 lines from a sucky boring reggae)
it's a genre-defining song, overclassic, dude. you don't have to like it but show some respect at least for chrissakes :)
I did not know. also obviously its an overreacted reply :P my apologies :) |
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Carrion
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 317 |
JAzzcat:
Weather Experiment ...
Thank you very much - now I remember the name of my favorite piece.
btw:
Do you guys also think that Invaders must die album is a comeback to the Prodigy roots from the "Experience" album |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Do you guys mean the Weather Experience from the Experience-Album?
This one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2k0TT8UAsY
Yeah, that's also one of my faves! ;-D Totally underrated... Love it when that 303 kicks in just before the breakbeat! 8)
Carrion: As stated above, "Invaders must die" is definately some sorta "back to the roots" thing for Liam. But only in parts, some aspects are also new style! ;-D |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
Woohoo for fanboys, did i say his music sucked? I am quite fond of the Prodigy early works, I have everything pre 94 on vinyl and no good on cd. Since music for the jilted generation, they have lost my interest.. If you actually look at what i wrote, i simply state his music samples way to much from other tunes. Anyone who thinks Prodigy is technically superior music is an idiot, it's the pinnacle of the defintion of techno, up there drum and bass, stab, vocal, bass and break.. repeat after 16 bars. I am personally a tunespotter, it's interesting to me to know where a sample originated from and who has used it in the past. I'm sorry if you got a little butthurt from what i wrote, but the truth is the truth.
As for me failing, thats hardly true. Here isn't the place for me to list my adventures, but feel free to catch me on irc if you want a heads up.
Getting somewhere back on topic.. I'm a big fan of Telefon Tel Aviv, they work Ableton Live very nicely and the company that makes it used them to promote the software. Fruity Loops is far more of a culprit than Ableton tho,. I heard souljah boy wrote crank dat with a trial copy, but it could be bullshit. |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
Fruity Loops were also the main tool for Concord Dawn.
Ableton Live is an awesome software, period. Especially for live performances. When it comes to music construction ;) I am still a hardcore Buzzer myself :) |
