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Dr.j
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 277 |
why cracking lame games?
hey there , i beleive some of you especially the crackrs wan't like my topic but i hardly can understand how decent groups cracking such lame "new" games , that some of them made on basic (or look it..), especially previews or unfinshed games. i understand the desire to crack and to continue the good old cracking scene (thats important and i support it) but for god sake the intros look much better than the games , only a few looks decent like POP 3 but the rest (as much as i saw lately) are really poor . i feel uncomfortable with this cracking. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
switch csdb to demo mode, problem solved. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3177 |
why releasing lame sid tunes that seem made in 1983, lame demos that seem made with 1986 demo makers, etc? ;) |
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bepp
Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 265 |
I'm sorry to hear that you feel uncomfortable with this cracking. |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1882 |
Dr. J, so right he is. I feel horrified by this cracking.
(Sorry, couldnt resists. Making fun of this awesome english is no cool though - he has a very valid point.)
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Sledge
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 102 |
Quote: hey there , i beleive some of you especially the crackrs wan't like my topic but i hardly can understand how decent groups cracking such lame "new" games , that some of them made on basic (or look it..), especially previews or unfinshed games. i understand the desire to crack and to continue the good old cracking scene (thats important and i support it) but for god sake the intros look much better than the games , only a few looks decent like POP 3 but the rest (as much as i saw lately) are really poor . i feel uncomfortable with this cracking.
What is a lame game? Is there a standard that tells what games is a game, and what game is a lame game?
Crack on!!! Don't look back! |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Look, there is no point at all to crack any game on the c64 in 2012. Period. Not lame ones, not cool ones. It's a pointless effort. It's a rediculous activity to be carried out by any grown man at the age of 40. It won't save the world, nobody ever cares about it (discounting us sceners, which likewise nobody in the world cares about), there is absolutely no market of consequence for it, and in the eyes of sane persons, it's a very nerdy and lame thing to do.
Still, so what? Games were made for cracking. So they get cracked. Beware, any game out there that still hasn't been cracked.
One thing that does concern me (not really) is whether all these cracks are actually cracks, or just the original game with an intro tagged in front of it. The art of cracking should be to do the almost but not ever nearly impossible. Make it run without needing the original. Linking an intro to a game that will run fine without the intro is not a crack. |
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TWW
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 543 |
I support cracking of games which in some way enhances the original. it may be trainer, removing copy protection, removing custom loaders to allow other types of HW to run it, ntsc/pal fixing and simple bug-fixing is good in my book.
the rest is garbage. |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1882 |
TWW: So true - should be introtagged by Garbage as well :)
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Codey
Registered: Oct 2005
Posts: 79 |
The intros looked better than alot of the games in 1994.. In fact i never got far beyond the intros more than once for the majority of releases.. |
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plagueis
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2007
Posts: 48 |
@Mr. Mouse:
"Look, there is no point at all to crack any game on the c64 in 2012. Period. Not lame ones, not cool ones. It's a pointless effort. It's a rediculous activity to be carried out by any grown man at the age of 40. It won't save the world, nobody ever cares about it (discounting us sceners, which likewise nobody in the world cares about), there is absolutely no market of consequence for it, and in the eyes of sane persons, it's a very nerdy and lame thing to do. "
So your idea of "sane persons" is defined by a global or regional consensus which you apparently follow without question? I guess this was sarcasm, judging by the next two paragraphs, but the first one was so stupid I had to say something. First of all, you are wrong. There is a major point to crack any game...namely that of intellectual enrichment and bolstering one's Reverse Engineering skills as well as enhancing those of coding as well. RCE (Reverse Code Engineering) is a certifiable job in I.T. now, if you need something that helps you fall in line with the 'sane masses'. So bullshit on your first point, and as to your second one...there is a "market of consequence"...check out "Secrets of Reverse Engineering" (2005) by Eldad Eilam. 'Nerdy' is a stupid fucking label invented to facilitate fear of higher than standard intellect, esp. in the U.S.
I still see your point, it's just that the stupid shit that came out of your mouth raised the noise floor so high it was hard to hear anything else. I don't give a shit what the rest of the world thinks about what I do, especially if it is leading to the aggrandizement of my own mental abilities.
As for the "lame" games...cracking has always been (at least for the crackers) about defeating the protections, more than anything else. Those in it for some kind of external boost to their self worth are the real lamers to me.
Someone said, all cracking aside from their idea of cracking is garbage. In my opinion, any cracking that someone learns from is good, but that doesn't mean everyone wants to see it. I code, crack and train many things that I don't post here, simply because there would be nothing original about such a release, and I only did it for practice......practice other coders/crackers had years ago, but I am just now finding time in my life to get around to. The fact that it's now 2012 and not 1988 doesn't bother me in the least, and if it bothers any of you, I pity you.
All this being said, I have encountered a few people whom I met on this forum, who seem to have a bit too much (way too much) of their self-worth invested in the c64 coding/cracking scene, and I must say they walk a difficult path indeed. They are the type of folks who are scared to admit when they don't know something and so they won't ask, but then when they *do* find out a new technique, they think its some big secret only they are privy to. I can only pity that type of personality. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Must have hit a snare there, plagueis. In any event, I was talking about the *C64 cracking*, read my message. You don't have to tell me what's the use of reverse engineering, I founded the XeNTaX Game Research Forum and also created MultiEx Commander back in 1997. I spent many hours figuring out file formats, and delving into assembly once in a while. I can understand if you use the cracking as training, but I don't get why you'd do it on a c64. It's an obsolete computer, why not do it on more modern systems. Of course I was being sarcastic to a big point, but you have to face it: the world really doesn't care about the c64. And to me the point of cracking was to make it possible to copy a game to another computer, improving it, making better loading routines etc. I also understand that you are now getting round to coding you wished you could have done in 1988, and I've done my share as well in the 2000's. Nevertheless, this is for personal gain only, and the amount of people that will ever use a crack currently released is of course nothing compared to 1988. Compared to the world population, it is negligible. Nothing. No point. ;-) But do continue, if it makes you happy. It's your free time, not mine, and you can do whatever you wish with it! I'd rather make another SID tune. Another useless time-spending. |
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plagueis
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2007
Posts: 48 |
Mr. Mouse: Well, what platform we are talking about doing assembly on, to me anyway, is irrelevant, since I found that once I learned one architecture well, I could learn other architectures quite easily, and it all runs together as the same issue. There are some assholes on here who think the c64 is the only real platform, and all others, including Amiga and PC, are lame and illegitimate. I find that surprising, but I have enough open minded friends, that I find the former ideas sad, but irrelevant to me.
I wasn't trying to denigrate you personally, I just didn't like the intimation that people who have specialized scientific and technological interests are non-sane "nerds".
Saying a piece of technology is *obsolete* is a ridiculous piece of subjective opinion passed off as fact, something I wouldn't expect from a Ph.D holder. The C64 is no longer a great device for making millions of US dollars for capitalist pigs, but it's quite useful for teaching oneself 65xx assembly, especially for those like us with a nostalgic background of watching intros and people like me who Grew up consuming ESI cracks.
The reason an actual cracker cracks is generally for the challenge, according to most interviews. For every skilled cracker back in 1990, there were 200 people who mindlessly leeched the latest warez off of elite boards, so if that was one's main interest (simply getting free games), then it could be easily serviced (back then and esp. now) by simply leeching. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
It's true, though. The hundreds of game file formats I've checked and demystified I did only for the challenge. The puzzle. It's really just a puzzle game. And a very addictive one for me personally. But it helps others who wish to create some mod for some game, so both win.
I can understand that outsiders who see me glued to some hex editor for hours think I'm nuts, though. So I do see your point, creating c64-cracks is for the challenge, but I often wonder if I'm a little mentally "special" for liking such a file format activity of my own that much. ;-) It's not really a mainstream thing to do, you must agree. And it too doesn't cure cancer, which in all probability would earn a lot more respect =).
Anyway, back to the topic, perhaps we should start analysing the so-called cracks for simple intro-tagging, or actual code changes in the original to make it run elsewhere. Then again, perhaps not, as it would cost all of us a needless amount of time.
As for cracking the lame games, I think we established that it's perfectly alright to crack a lame game, as long as there was a protection of some kind that needed circumventing, or some loader improved, size crunched, trainer build. I wonder though, where do these games come from? Were they all originals that never had been cracked before, because crackers back then did not care about it (wouldn't earn them respect?). |
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The Ignorance
Registered: Apr 2006
Posts: 85 |
You all have some points, but you still miss imho a very heavy part.
Some/or most games you call as lame are seldom or never cracked or buggy cracked.
Some people seek them down, buy them and are making coverscans, manualscans and transfer the images to PC to keep all preserved.
And if they want to make a release for this effort it's ok for me.
If it is needed to release year 2000+ games which are downloadable from the web by the coder is imho sth different.
Better this than seeing WDR and recracks again.
Lame games: where to draw the line?
Just my 2.38 cents... |
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plagueis
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2007
Posts: 48 |
The Ignorance: I agree totally there with what you say...I agree with Mouse too in his latest post, but even if what we do with low level coding isn't understood by the mainstream, who cares? I sure as fuck don't.
I can't speak with great experience on this topic, as I'm no great cracker with 30 years of experience, but I enjoy learning.
I put in my points due to the fact that I don't like seeing what I consider discouraging talk about any aspect of 64 activity, and I'd like to see it continue for years, simply because there will be plenty of active individuals from whom I can learn from and enjoy their prods.
As for coverscans, cart dumps, originals etc....I've bought plenty of stuff of of ebay and scanned it and dumped carts myself, etc. I'm all in favor of people doing that. My efforts don't even always amount to a release, simply because I don't have a lot of ego invested in this, not personally. If I did, that might be quite 'nerdy', since then my self-image would be directly be proportional to my release list...which in my own case, is not yet very impressive.
Luckily, there are a lot of cool dudes who do this for the sheer fun, and in the OCS Amiga community (very small) it's like 100% done for the love of doing a (crack) job right. I think that's the recipe for keeping activity going into the foreseeable future...but I'm way off topic (not really). |
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The Shadow
Registered: Oct 2007
Posts: 304 |
Every few years I see someone complaining about some form of scene activity.
Cracking is just as relevant on the C=64 as is any other system. Everyone has their favorite computer and everyone within the scene has their favorite activity.
The age of the Commodore is irrelevant. For instance, I enjoy rebuilding and restoring old and antique cars.
The current car I drive was built in the early 1980s. My car weighs the same as a standard police car and has comparable armor. In a crash it is a very safe car. Now to get into old versus modern, let's compare my car to say a modern Toyota Prius. A Prius is rated at 43 miles per gallon fuel efficiency. My car gets around 40 miles per gallon fuel efficiency. My car can take a severe beating. Crash in a Prius and the driver is likely to become the meat of a metal sandwich. The turn radius of my car is much wider than a Prius too.
This is an example of why the age of equipment is irrelevant.
Our scene is a wonderful community first. Our activities within the scene do not need to fit in with some modern definition of good activity. We could all be doing nothing more than weaving straw baskets and our scene would still be great. |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
So to sum up the thread, if a c64 crack crashes you're in a much bigger risk of severe injury than if it was a crack of a game from a more recent/modern platform. No wonder The Dr.j feels uncomfortable with this cracking. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Quote: So to sum up the thread, if a c64 crack crashes you're in a much bigger risk of severe injury than if it was a crack of a game from a more recent/modern platform. No wonder The Dr.j feels uncomfortable with this cracking.
You got it bro'. =) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
"We could all be doing nothing more than weaving straw baskets and our scene would still be great."
that pretty much sums up what i think those crackers think who release those games the thread is about. |
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plagueis
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2007
Posts: 48 |
Yeah, true....but I'd rather see more lame releases, than watch all releases dwindle down, until finally years from now -- nothing.
Now I see the "nerdy" babyish behavior Mr. Mouse was talking about -- arrogant blowhards who would rather wave their dick in your face than give a bit of encouragement. You people walk a difficult and lonely path.
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Sledge
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 102 |
Quote: Look, there is no point at all to crack any game on the c64 in 2012. Period. Not lame ones, not cool ones. It's a pointless effort. It's a rediculous activity to be carried out by any grown man at the age of 40. It won't save the world, nobody ever cares about it (discounting us sceners, which likewise nobody in the world cares about), there is absolutely no market of consequence for it, and in the eyes of sane persons, it's a very nerdy and lame thing to do.
Still, so what? Games were made for cracking. So they get cracked. Beware, any game out there that still hasn't been cracked.
One thing that does concern me (not really) is whether all these cracks are actually cracks, or just the original game with an intro tagged in front of it. The art of cracking should be to do the almost but not ever nearly impossible. Make it run without needing the original. Linking an intro to a game that will run fine without the intro is not a crack.
Haha.. but you mean that you posting here, on a C64 scene forum, at the age of 40 in 2012 is something different than a pointless effort? No offence ;)
As long as we are interested in the scene and the C64, then the cracking of games is also interesting. No matter how old you are. Period.
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1882 |
and no matter how old the games are!
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plagueis
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2007
Posts: 48 |
Quote: Haha.. but you mean that you posting here, on a C64 scene forum, at the age of 40 in 2012 is something different than a pointless effort? No offence ;)
As long as we are interested in the scene and the C64, then the cracking of games is also interesting. No matter how old you are. Period.
\o/ yay, smart guys. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
As a matter of fact, now I think about it, this whole thread is 100% pointless. So crack on. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4702 |
Moaners unite. Start a group and create stuff. |
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Sledge
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 102 |
Quote: As a matter of fact, now I think about it, this whole thread is 100% pointless. So crack on.
:) |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
Everything is pointless. Time ticks, you decay and die. Everything you do is obsolete in the core. You're done good or bad, you won't benefit on the long run because there is no long run as such. So what is the point of anything at all?
The scene was built on cracking games on a big part and now it is a starving beast that jumps on anything that moves. Law of nature. It is like a field with some trees, a dosen of zebras and a thousand lions.
@Mr. Mouse: It's 2012, there are no more and less important C64 releases anymore. Anything people produce on C64 these days is not less pointless than your statistics you released some time ago. There is no point at all, but I respect your work went into it. All you can do is to have some respect for the efforts burned on the obsolete. You're a high IQ guy and proven yourself many times - so what the hell is this low attitude, man? Don't be so disappointing. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Darn, people, take it easy. Some sarcasm here and there, and now you expect me to behave my IQ? Get a grip. I'm disappointing? Like...er...what?! I'm clearly one of those pointless persons spending a lot of pointless time pointlessly in the occasional pointless c64 release, like pointless tunes, pointless old fixes, pointless other platform tools and pointless CSDb statistics. So I would have thought my pointless sarcasm would be clear to all. And I've explained so in the rest of the thread as well. But that effort was apparently pointless. =) |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
Aye, I think I pointlessly misunderstood the pointlessness of the point somewhere.
Aw... Hell. Let's have a beer :) |
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The Ignorance
Registered: Apr 2006
Posts: 85 |
And here some points for you pointless people.................
................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ....................................................................... |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Quote: Aye, I think I pointlessly misunderstood the pointlessness of the point somewhere.
Aw... Hell. Let's have a beer :)
I second that, cheers mate ! |
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Dr.j
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 277 |
i want to emphasize and clear some things.
1. i love games!! i appricate the efforts ppl are making
to make such wonderfull games no matter if its on basic or Asm. i myself envy at ppl who know to code games and release games that are not commercial only for fun . thats another aspect to contribute the scene like demo, gfx ,
music and anything else. keep doing games!
2. i dont like when cracking groups release unfinished
games , or 90% games that the autor show privately . i
prefer the original game the autor wrote and spread .
a lot of trainers are not needed for such games. and i dont talk when crack make the game buggy etc.
3. cracking is great but not every game!!
we ARE all one great community and lets keep it cool !
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2556 |
Quoting NecroPolo
The scene was built on cracking games on a big part and now it is a starving beast that jumps on anything that moves. Law of nature. It is like a field with some trees, a dosen of zebras and a thousand lions.
OK, I get the zebras and the lions, but what do the trees stand for? :-)
@Dr.j: on point 2: also previews being spread by cracking groups has a historical precedence, and checking the download numbers, people's taste and opinion on this topic differ widely (not surprisingly...); I would just ignore what I don't like.
And I am all in for a beer or five or nine - so let's drink X dry this year! :-P |
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bepp
Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 265 |
Quote: Quoting NecroPolo
The scene was built on cracking games on a big part and now it is a starving beast that jumps on anything that moves. Law of nature. It is like a field with some trees, a dosen of zebras and a thousand lions.
OK, I get the zebras and the lions, but what do the trees stand for? :-)
@Dr.j: on point 2: also previews being spread by cracking groups has a historical precedence, and checking the download numbers, people's taste and opinion on this topic differ widely (not surprisingly...); I would just ignore what I don't like.
And I am all in for a beer or five or nine - so let's drink X dry this year! :-P
Amen! |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
Quote: Quoting NecroPolo
The scene was built on cracking games on a big part and now it is a starving beast that jumps on anything that moves. Law of nature. It is like a field with some trees, a dosen of zebras and a thousand lions.
OK, I get the zebras and the lions, but what do the trees stand for? :-)
@Dr.j: on point 2: also previews being spread by cracking groups has a historical precedence, and checking the download numbers, people's taste and opinion on this topic differ widely (not surprisingly...); I would just ignore what I don't like.
And I am all in for a beer or five or nine - so let's drink X dry this year! :-P
Trees are just screen fillers in the 1000 Lions vs 10 Zebras sideways scroller :) |
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PARALAX
Registered: Mar 2012
Posts: 30 |
Quoting The Dr.jhey there , i beleive some of you especially the crackrs wan't like my topic but i hardly can understand how decent groups cracking such lame "new" games , that some of them made on basic (or look it..), especially previews or unfinshed games.
It's sad that many groups are still fighting about the best or first release and even use insults in their scroller instead of private conversation. Same for comments how good or worse the game is which have been cracked. That's one of the reason why I skipped their intros often, even when it contains some very nice graphics or sound.
I generally think that "lame games" are relative. I even had much fun with BASIC games when I type them from magazines in the 80's and 90's, even when it works. ;-)
There's naturally no comparison with commercial games or products, even not with many free games and demos written in machine code. But I wonder when I often like to play some simple BASIC games like "Kniffel" which makes more fun than a commercial game with good graphics but short-time fun factor. It's all about the authenticity. :-) |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4702 |
I don't think it's sad. I think it's quite amazing. :D |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1065 |
Quoting PARALAXIt's sad that many groups are still fighting about the best or first release and even use insults in their scroller instead of private conversation.
Au contraire. This place would be a lot nicer if we had a bunch of demo wars instead of forum bitching. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
magervalp wins =) |
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icon
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 89 |
Magervalp for president! God I miss the good old wars we had in the eighties! |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
So I see several votes for closing all forums except for coding/sid/gfx ones? ;-) |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4702 |
Infidels! |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2914 |
Quote: So I see several votes for closing all forums except for coding/sid/gfx ones? ;-)
Don't forget entry comments and voting ;)
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
i like hedning's idea; start a group called Moaners, everybody joins and we write long, bitching scrolltexts about each other! |
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iceout
Registered: Mar 2006
Posts: 3 |
I have no problem with cracking "lame games." If you can
improve them in any way, why not? In 2012, even Loadstar is gone now. |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2556 |
Quote: Quote: So I see several votes for closing all forums except for coding/sid/gfx ones? ;-)
Don't forget entry comments and voting ;)
Seriously, I would opt for that. Only addition would be the "Entries" forum, to clarify details of entries. Ah, a nice dream... |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3177 |
Quote: i like hedning's idea; start a group called Moaners, everybody joins and we write long, bitching scrolltexts about each other!
join Moan Team instead |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quoting iAN CooGjoin Moan Team instead
Nah, they're in the top ten crews and would never let me in... [sob!] |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
"Seriously, I would opt for that."
same here. if only a fraction of the whining would go into actual releases ...... |
