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Faith
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 148 |
will some 1 please tell me why
we have in the last days votet some groups in top 5! just for fun .......... and the most funny about it is few minutes after some 1 votet it down with 1 point , it seems to be somebody like to bee on the top 5 , so please can we get publised votes in here so we can see who the rullers are there are the voting 1 point for groups in here ..... |
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Faith
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 148 |
i have also seen that 2 have votet 1 fore legend who is it that means that legend is so awful ???? i really like to see the votes publised---- okay i did like legend a lot but to give them 1 point is really lame sorry if i make trouble again .... but i don´t understand it |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Say, have you lived in a cave in the brazilian jungle for the last 10 years? Downvoting sucks, but seems to be something perfectly normal these days. Feel free to vote for transparent votings down there on the right, but otherwise there's nothing you can do... |
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Faith
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 148 |
Quote: Say, have you lived in a cave in the brazilian jungle for the last 10 years? Downvoting sucks, but seems to be something perfectly normal these days. Feel free to vote for transparent votings down there on the right, but otherwise there's nothing you can do...
i have been on bornholm in the last 7 years , (it is like to be in a jungle belive me) i like the votes it is nice and fun but giving people 1 point it is so fucking lame |
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Crossfire
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 221 |
Well, if virtually everyone on here seem to agree that downvoting sucks, then why not change the system. I think it's kinda ridicolous too. One thing is giving points to groups you like, but another is the be able to directly make them move down the charts..
Nope, it worked better in the old days, the ways you voted for the mags. Name your ten favorites and that's it. Obviously, it's a lot more complex to code (yeah right..) and it would mean the system would have to change, but so what. It seems to generate so much BS on here so maybe you should really consider it..
I'm here to have fun, not to hear constant nagging and biggering. I had so plenty of that on the boards twelve years ago, so either stop or I'll pull the plug for my own sake - and while that might not sound like a threat it is not meant as one, merely stating facts. |
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Ter-o
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 5 |
Imho this voting system had a nice potential but it's being misused and yet, I dislike the way it calculates the average value of votes.. f.e. someone has 5 votes, all 10, then he shows up in charts as #1... and then people who have tens of votes, have 9.x or smthn.. and yes, I know: "well why don't you give more votes to this 'fake' #1 then" ... well, I feel that in CSDb, only few members actually care to vote almost anything... considering this, I also agree that the voting system could have use for some face lifting :)
But in generally, this forum is probably one of the best I've ever seen and it really feels like a community. So huge props to all you admins!
__
pHASE1 / creators, dekadence |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Faith, I didn't mean to attack you, I was just trying to be a little ironic... ;-)
I surely agree that downvoting sucks and is lame. By the way, you can make your own votes public in the Userpage tab up there on the left. |
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Faith
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 148 |
yes i know ,-) |
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Radar
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 259 |
Quote: i have also seen that 2 have votet 1 fore legend who is it that means that legend is so awful ???? i really like to see the votes publised---- okay i did like legend a lot but to give them 1 point is really lame sorry if i make trouble again .... but i don´t understand it
The problem simply is that the people tend to vote by sympathy and not for the skills. For example have a look at the votings of Beastie Boys. Peter/Enigma voted a '1' for BB - in fact he was barely around at that time and can't even judge about Beasties (he was in great 'Miama Vice Crackers' at that time), but he simply doesn't like the fact that Syndicate was right-winged and so... bad vote! I asked him if he calls this a fair vote for the group - no answer but a 'piss off nazi' instead. Great scener...
Another example is Extremist of Empire. He always got denied from Beasties in the past when he still was a lamer from Canada. Axiom gave the wares to somebody else - so he decided to vote a 2 out of sympathy instead of judging the skills.
The third example is Rough/Chromance (yup, just another ripper...) by voting his 'hard awfull' and by perfectly writing stupid comments about BB.
I personally got a '2' as a phreaker... Well, I never said that I have been the greatest phreaker in the past, but some people still ride the street full of jealousy.
THAT are the reasons for those votes... |
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Optimus
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 |
Welcome to the scene :)
p.s. No matter, I voted yes for 100% transparent votes, I 'd really love to see who these downvoters are ;)
p.p.s. Can I see the results of the transparent votes survey, or when are they gonna released anyways? |
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Optimus
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 |
Or to say it elsewhere: I want 100% transparent "100% transparent votes" poll =) |
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Crossfire
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 221 |
Human rule #1: If it CAN be abused, it WILL be...
Haven't you people learned anything? ;-) |
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Radar
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 259 |
Quote: Human rule #1: If it CAN be abused, it WILL be...
Haven't you people learned anything? ;-)
That's the point - another one is, that stupid little people like ecological Peter (nowadays saving eskimos at the northpol) will even show their deepest wishes from the past ;-) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
You know, actually the solution is quite simple: we should just regard the charts as 'most liked' instead of 'best of'. Most liked can relate to both a person and his qualities, so then it will be accurate.
Or we could just drop the charts all together. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3036 |
Perff agreed that I can use the transparent charts at c64.sk, so I will when the new system will be launched. (although I'm still stronglyu for dropping of anonymity completely.) |
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Radar
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 259 |
@Dark Judge
I believe that the people already vote like 'most liked' and that just a few vote for the skills. If a group/person is disliked, it has nothing to do with the skills at all. Your're right at that point...
@CreamD
So you start a kind of 'CSDB' on your own? |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3036 |
Radar, we are coopearing together like partner sites. C64.sk links to CSDB and help(ed) to promote this project since it was launched. Links to forums, show latest CSDB forum posts, Scener Birthdays. I planned to show latest releases too, but I didn't implement the code yet.
So we keep doing what our sites are made for. C64.sk is a C64 news site and c64scene.net is a C64 scene database. |
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Ter-o
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 5 |
One thing that crossed my mind about voting system could be that how about every vote increases total amount of points? so even those "downvotes" would increase the total amount of that person's points. And charts would be generated only of those total amount of points (more points, more higher you rank). F.E. if you check out mermaid's total amount of votes 66 (almost double as much as sander(37) and jailbird(36), rest have even less votes) she would definately have the total amount of points that she deserves... and most probably go to #1 in charts, where she belongs.
Just a thought... my 2 cents for making this votingsystem more fair. (not forgetting 100% transparent votes)
Thanks for your interest |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: One thing that crossed my mind about voting system could be that how about every vote increases total amount of points? so even those "downvotes" would increase the total amount of that person's points. And charts would be generated only of those total amount of points (more points, more higher you rank). F.E. if you check out mermaid's total amount of votes 66 (almost double as much as sander(37) and jailbird(36), rest have even less votes) she would definately have the total amount of points that she deserves... and most probably go to #1 in charts, where she belongs.
Just a thought... my 2 cents for making this votingsystem more fair. (not forgetting 100% transparent votes)
Thanks for your interest
Interesting idea, but it won't work. The problem is that it's once again a matter of who's most known/liked that will be on top.
Lots of people know Mermaid, so will vote for Mermaid. Mermaid will be #1. Other people see her name in the charts and think: "I need to vote for her as well". Mermaid will stay #1.
Will another graphician (let's say, because I'm a bastard, Tecon) is not known by too many people so he will never gather enough votes to get into the top 10, hence he stays unknown and unvoted for. |
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Ter-o
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 5 |
Yeah that problem might occur. Tho, somehow this should be solved.. since the current voting system allows downvotes as for making harm to someone and also favors ppl with less votes.
Another idea that came my mind would be that the average value of votes should be somehow balanced to the amount of votes... f.e. those who have only 5 votes, would have lesser average value (somehow "weighed" of amount of votes) than those who have tens of votes.. I hope you catch my drift :)
But as it is now, I think it does not give the respect to those who deserves it :) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Yeah that problem might occur. Tho, somehow this should be solved.. since the current voting system allows downvotes as for making harm to someone and also favors ppl with less votes.
Another idea that came my mind would be that the average value of votes should be somehow balanced to the amount of votes... f.e. those who have only 5 votes, would have lesser average value (somehow "weighed" of amount of votes) than those who have tens of votes.. I hope you catch my drift :)
But as it is now, I think it does not give the respect to those who deserves it :)
Maybe I misunderstand, but do you really feel that somebody who gets more votes also automatically deserves more respect?
That would favor today's sceners over those from the golden age, because let's face it, they are better known.
Most people here probably don't know Compyx/Focus but he was one of the greatest logo-graphicians ever. Yet he hardly gets any votes.
Y'know, I think I'm gonna change that right now :) |
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Nightlord
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
@tdj:
i completely disagree with you on this. i do not think the voting system favors the new guys. in fact it favors the old guys. and i think this way it decreases the motivation for new people. for example in diskmags, the editors edit the charts so that no inactive people show up. if you were to remove those guys that haven't released anything for two years from charts the csdb charts would look very different (and more accurate). i mean take the coder charts for example. there are guys like quiss and tts in high ranks. competing with tts is like competing a ghost. no matter how good they were their inactivity should not be favored over people like hollowman or ninja or iopop who are the active players of the scene today. i know c64 scene itself is by definition related to nostalgia but those who keep the scene alive today should not be judged against people who haven't been around for a decade. we don't have bohemian rapsody in charts now do we?
maybe the best solution is to divide charts into all time and current. so that the all time best can remain to be recognized, while best of today get the ranks they deserve. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: @tdj:
i completely disagree with you on this. i do not think the voting system favors the new guys. in fact it favors the old guys. and i think this way it decreases the motivation for new people. for example in diskmags, the editors edit the charts so that no inactive people show up. if you were to remove those guys that haven't released anything for two years from charts the csdb charts would look very different (and more accurate). i mean take the coder charts for example. there are guys like quiss and tts in high ranks. competing with tts is like competing a ghost. no matter how good they were their inactivity should not be favored over people like hollowman or ninja or iopop who are the active players of the scene today. i know c64 scene itself is by definition related to nostalgia but those who keep the scene alive today should not be judged against people who haven't been around for a decade. we don't have bohemian rapsody in charts now do we?
maybe the best solution is to divide charts into all time and current. so that the all time best can remain to be recognized, while best of today get the ranks they deserve.
Bullsh*t.
This is not a mag, so don't compare these charts with charts in the mags. CSDB is all about history (it's a database for god's sake!), so the charts should stay like they are right now: all-time charts.
Your example (Bohemian Rhapsody) is not in the top 40 but in most of the top 100 ever charts. As it should be.
If you want current charts load up arachnophobia or one of those other brilliant mags. You give me my Queen, and then you can keep your Britney Spears for yourself, so to speak :)
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Ter-o
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 5 |
chill out guys :D I think this conversation started to take wrong direction... but.. what should I know, I'm a lamer, who started in c64 scene only 2 years ago... :P well how about a system (which was probably mentioned before) that everyone votes their top 5-10 of all-time in every genre.. takes more work but then it would make good to oldschool elites and talented newcomers too...
dunno... this definately is a difficult issue... |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: chill out guys :D I think this conversation started to take wrong direction... but.. what should I know, I'm a lamer, who started in c64 scene only 2 years ago... :P well how about a system (which was probably mentioned before) that everyone votes their top 5-10 of all-time in every genre.. takes more work but then it would make good to oldschool elites and talented newcomers too...
dunno... this definately is a difficult issue...
Don't worry, I ain't mad, I just think it's strange to say that active sceners don't have a chance when all the charts show a perfect mix of old & new.
Now don't make me go give examples :) |
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Nightlord
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
Quote: Bullsh*t.
This is not a mag, so don't compare these charts with charts in the mags. CSDB is all about history (it's a database for god's sake!), so the charts should stay like they are right now: all-time charts.
Your example (Bohemian Rhapsody) is not in the top 40 but in most of the top 100 ever charts. As it should be.
If you want current charts load up arachnophobia or one of those other brilliant mags. You give me my Queen, and then you can keep your Britney Spears for yourself, so to speak :)
:)))))
i am a big fan of queen and especially bohemian rapsody. as i am a big fan of tts and quiss. that is why i chose bohemian rapsody as an example. but on the other hand i do not think your examples britney speartits or arachnophobia mag are accurately representing what i was meaning with newcomers and diskmags:)
should csdb include current charts are all time charts. hmm i think you have a point when you say this is a database and so it should have all time charts. i am convinced on this point.
on the other hand i have some doubts about whether is there any fair way to compare coders of two different decades. somethink that looks trivial today can be an amazing achievement 10 years ago. so new coders have advantage or vice versa i think coders of old times had more margin to the limits of hardware. that is it is getting harder and harder to break records etc.
my point is how can one judge is oswald a better coder than slammer for example. notice i am choosing examples very carefully and i hope you see the logic behind it and don't come up with another comparison between freddy mercury and enrique iglesias(just kidding:)) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: :)))))
i am a big fan of queen and especially bohemian rapsody. as i am a big fan of tts and quiss. that is why i chose bohemian rapsody as an example. but on the other hand i do not think your examples britney speartits or arachnophobia mag are accurately representing what i was meaning with newcomers and diskmags:)
should csdb include current charts are all time charts. hmm i think you have a point when you say this is a database and so it should have all time charts. i am convinced on this point.
on the other hand i have some doubts about whether is there any fair way to compare coders of two different decades. somethink that looks trivial today can be an amazing achievement 10 years ago. so new coders have advantage or vice versa i think coders of old times had more margin to the limits of hardware. that is it is getting harder and harder to break records etc.
my point is how can one judge is oswald a better coder than slammer for example. notice i am choosing examples very carefully and i hope you see the logic behind it and don't come up with another comparison between freddy mercury and enrique iglesias(just kidding:))
Hey, don't you dare to diss enrique inglesias! The boy got style, dammit! :)
Comparing people from 15 years ago to those of today is very, very hard ..
With demos it's (a bit) easier: I myself have been in the process of rating demos for ages now, hoping to get a final list of productions that really stand out from the rest. Most demos I used to love dearly didn't stand the test of time but some do and they can easily be placed next to the best of the new generation.
I remember the impact a lot of coders had back when, but newer sceners don't, all they can do is imagine it. Since that's quite hard most people won't do that, and hence, won't vote for such people. Which brings me back to my original point that newer sceners get more votes. Because let's face it, there are more 'new school' than 'old school' sceners on csdb. 90% of the people I worked with in 1988 have left the scene a long time ago, and don't give a fuck about this. |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Charts have always been odd. Take the music charts, i always remember Jeroen Tel making the top 10 two or more years after he quit. For a magazine to have charts, then they should base the votes on votes based on what has been released from one issue to another [asking alot i know] /WEC |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Charts have always been odd. Take the music charts, i always remember Jeroen Tel making the top 10 two or more years after he quit. For a magazine to have charts, then they should base the votes on votes based on what has been released from one issue to another [asking alot i know] /WEC
So you're looking for a top 3 instead of a top 10 then? :) |
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Derision
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 69 |
There's a boatload of things that can be done to improve this and yet, at the same time, nothing ever WILL really make the votes perfect. It's been a gripe since day one... downvoting, bla bla, it's a scene epidemic.
We could organize the charts into "per year" or "per era" categories. That way, say group A has an overall rating of 5.6 all-time, but since they were the highest rated group from 1985, they would be #1 in the 1985 charts. Of course, this relies on accurate information on when the groups existed (founding and dissolving dates)... which we don't have, far as I know.
Or we could change the voting system entirely and determine the rankings of groups and/or sceners by the votes that their productions recieved. In this manner, we could vote "Demo A" a 9 and "Demo B" might be 5, etc., and the overall group score would be determined by those numbers.
This could also be done for the individuals that contributed for those demos... but it would be innacurate, as always, because say, hypothetically, that Graham and I contributed code to the same demo. If the demo then gets a rating of 9, then I also get a 9, which is preposterous because my contribution was probably awful.
On that same thread, we can use the scener charts to determine rankings for a demo group. If Coder A gets a rating of 9, then his group (of whom he is the only coder) also gets a 9 as a "code" rating.
Most of those ideas are wildly unpractical.
This idea isn't, though... and I even kind of like it. We can kind of mesh ALL the votes together... so that if a group has nine votes for an an overall rating of 7 or something, you could take that and then work the overall ratings of it's productions (and/or sceners) into it as well. In this way, we increase the overall votes that each group/release/scener gets and diminish the result of downvoting -- which will never be erradicated.
So Group A has 9 votes for an overall rating of 7, then we add the 14 votes that it's production, "Demo" recieved for a score of 8... and we end up with 21 votes, the average of which I don't feel like figuring out.
My last thought is to just implement a downvoting blocker. A single account votes #1 three or more times, and he loses the right to vote. Also not going to stop downvoting, but it's a thought nonetheless.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled griping.
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Quote: So you're looking for a top 3 instead of a top 10 then? :)
*heh*
Well i have no objection to a magazine featuring a all time top 20 charts covering Artists, Musician, Coders, Cracker etc. Although to give the present people a chance and to keep charts alittle interesting, a chart based on current releases would be better. As for a top 3, it all depends how many releases there are between a mazagine releasing it`s issues. If a magazine were to be released very month then the charts would be very small. If how ever you take a magazine for example Internal (which is released maybe every 6 months at best) then the charts would paint a different picture /WEC :)
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Silly me, I came up with yet another way to make charts, kind of a mix between several of the solutions mentioned above.
Every member here can select up to 10 of his favourites in a specific area. So his 10 favorite demos, coders, graphicians, cracking groups, whatever. This list is an unranked one, so every name on the list gets 1 point. Charts are compiled by basically just adding the points a scener/group/release gets from the voting members.
Members can change this list whenever and how many times they like. Lets say I already have the max. of 10 demos selected and Xenon releases an absolute killer that I feel should belong in that list as well. I should be able to press an add to favorites button on the page of that demo, and then select the demo that I want to take out of my favorites list (because I cant have 11 of them). The demo taken out gets one points less, the Xenon demo gets one more and presto: dynamic charts!
Whaddayathink? |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
I actually like this idea a lot... |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 475 |
nice idea.
one shouldn't be able to add own stuff or stuff from his own group though.
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: nice idea.
one shouldn't be able to add own stuff or stuff from his own group though.
Why not? If people really like the work they did, they can show that. And it won't do much harm: let's say that I feel I'm one of my fave coders. So I get 1 point. Chances are that's all I'll ever get (well, one from Sander as well but that's because I have pictures).
Personally speaking, 4 of my (ex) team members are amongst my 10 fave graphicians. So I would like to have them in my 'fave graphicians' list :)
Also, transparancy would be less of an issue here, but it would be nice if for example I could see who else has a demo I like in their list, and what their other fave demos are. Maybe I'll even discover a new fave?
You could even have a comment added to your favourits. Taking that killer Xenon demo for example: "I never really saw the use of fullscreen 5d vector objects but after this demo I can't live without!" :) |
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Faith
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 148 |
i dont even whant to talk about any more becoz all the new sceners really think that they are the kings .. buuuuuh welcome all new sceners you are the kings all of you thanx for that................ |
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drake
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 207 |
welcome to the 'new' scene, faith ;-)
enyoy your stay and be your own king! |
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Faith
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 148 |
yiah thanks |
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Faith
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 148 |
greetings to radar for all the good work he have done on the c-64 (you got my respect pal) and i really fucking miss the old time ..... and greetings to the new scene you dont have my respect you have my heart thanks for holding the c-64 alive |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Quote: Silly me, I came up with yet another way to make charts, kind of a mix between several of the solutions mentioned above.
Every member here can select up to 10 of his favourites in a specific area. So his 10 favorite demos, coders, graphicians, cracking groups, whatever. This list is an unranked one, so every name on the list gets 1 point. Charts are compiled by basically just adding the points a scener/group/release gets from the voting members.
Members can change this list whenever and how many times they like. Lets say I already have the max. of 10 demos selected and Xenon releases an absolute killer that I feel should belong in that list as well. I should be able to press an add to favorites button on the page of that demo, and then select the demo that I want to take out of my favorites list (because I cant have 11 of them). The demo taken out gets one points less, the Xenon demo gets one more and presto: dynamic charts!
Whaddayathink?
I like the idea although it is still only an idea to generate an all time best chart list. Which is fair enough :)
-
My original point of a chart to chart success of current stuff would work something like:
Here`s a vote sheet...
Here`s what was released between March and June (for example). You can only vote for what is listed on the list!
Go fill out your vote sheet ;)
The onlt issue with this idea would be, some sceners would not have seen all releases list on the vote sheet list.
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: I like the idea although it is still only an idea to generate an all time best chart list. Which is fair enough :)
-
My original point of a chart to chart success of current stuff would work something like:
Here`s a vote sheet...
Here`s what was released between March and June (for example). You can only vote for what is listed on the list!
Go fill out your vote sheet ;)
The onlt issue with this idea would be, some sceners would not have seen all releases list on the vote sheet list.
It's not only an idea to generate an all time best chart list. Because a category can also be "best demo of 2003" for example.
Think bigger, bigger I tell you! |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Quote: It's not only an idea to generate an all time best chart list. Because a category can also be "best demo of 2003" for example.
Think bigger, bigger I tell you!
*i see* /WEC :) |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 633 |
I still cant figure out HOW to vote for groups etc?? WHat am I stupid??? Dont answer that...
Someone plz tell me how to vote, cause my opinion counts! :D
(Huge ego you know, bigger than even The Shark's!)
Fungus |
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Platoon
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 40 |
yes u search for the sceener platoon and pick the 1 from daniax then in the right corner u give this guy a 10 :)
hehe just kidding but thats how its done correct me if im wrong.
search group or sceener and u can vote in the right corner............ |
