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2005-04-12 10:15

Slartibartfast
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230

** Link removed by CSDb staff due to copyright. Please do not provide download links to this **

Well, there has been a few of these notices today, on certain Protovision releases that have been cracked and released by some people on CSDb.

Cracking has always been a large part of the scene, arguably the biggest and also what has ultimately ensured the scene to exist today.

If it weren't for cracking, piracy if you will, many games simply wouldn't be available on the web today. The C64dtv wouldn't have much of a lineup, all the games on it were cracks from the scene.

Now this issue has come to CSDb again, over old releases of Protovision games. Download links removed, to files which are definitely a part of the scene.

I can understand the policy on this, it's a way to protect CSDb against legal action. Other sites, for instance GB64, have tackled this by not hosting the files and just providing links to them.

But CSDb won't allow even that, if someone has an issue with their copyrighted work being available, the links will be removed. Even links provided by the user in their comment to the entry, will be censored and removed.

There is nothing regarding this policy in the CSDb FAQ, yet there is this disclaimer:

"Who's responsible for this?
We cannot take responsibility for the content of this database as all information is submitted by users."

So, that says straight out that CSDb is not responsible for the content.

It can be said that this is a way to protect CSDb in future, but from whom exactly? Can anyone honestly see Chronosoft or Protovision sueing anyone? Or if this is a measure to protect CSDb, could it go further and remove all cracks from the site?

On the other hand, CSDb are just trying to protect themselves, from Protovision apparently. Should we take the old debate over piracy directly to Protovision? As sceners themselves, they should know better than to be taking on this issue against sceners. Don't we all know by now that the people who would download these cracks, are not the same people that would buy it? That some of the people that get the game for free may even consider buying it at a later point?

One of the Protovision founders was a cracker himself, other members have been crackers, swappers or undoubtedly recipients of pirated software themselves.

This seemed to start with Macgyver altering a release of a PTV game here yesterday. A member of Protovision and also a CSDb admin. He was a swapper in the past.

Is this censorship really necessary? Do Protovision really think they would lose sales of these games, does CSDb really think there is any threat of legalities from an admin of this site?

This is an issue that strikes deep with many in the scene, and this site is an essential part of the scene today.

Surely there must be a better way to deal with this.

So let's discuss it here rather than in comments on these censored releases ;)

... 209 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2005-04-13 03:14

Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206

Quote:

4) Keeping up 'traditions' that don't make sense any more is mentally retarded.

for a moment I thought you were referring to selling c64 games when only 35 people were buying them :)

2005-04-13 05:06

Fungus

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680

Yes Macgyver , please address the questions brought to you.

Thunder Blade. Crackers today are about data preservation, keeping these old games from being lost forever. Becuase the "old" crackers couldn't do it right the first time, due to time pressures of the scene in those days. So I beleive preserving these games in 100% working state is very important indeed. Lest we all spend thousands of dollars collecting originals (which I like to do anyways) and then having to wait for our crusty old 1541's to load these some times dog slow loaders and beat the shit out of our drives... no thanks.

So we REAL CRACKERS will keep doing what we do, regardless of your opinions. It IS a hobby and we enjoy it, so clutching at straws for fame and recognition would just be a fucking moronic thing to do these days. Why? Nobody fucking cares about that anymore...

It's an old ass argument, quality over quantity, isn't it stupid to make such comparisons over it? Been done to death...

2005-04-13 05:39

hollowman

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474

Quote:

5) Downvoting people who are doing a good job at what they do, but have a different opinion compared to you, is not only extremely lame. It's like not buying from someone because he is a jew.

afaik streettuff gave macgyver a 1 as Public Relations Manager, and as we can all see, this seems rather justified

Quote:

And finally - look at all those people here who are against MacGyver and what he does, or Protovision and what they do. What do those people who are so upset here all have in common?

And look at those who defend him, what do they have in common? Maccie is lucky having a brother and a brother in law to defend him when he isnt able defend himself beyond using the rhetorical skills of a four year old

2005-04-13 05:42

Trash

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122

In response to Thunderblade:
Programming games nobody wants is idiotic, trying to sell them is even stupider but I can respect one would like to keep them oneself and not getting them spread.

In general, since cracking is a big tradition on the little commie everybody should respect that. The crackers are generally good at what they AND at what they don't do, they (even those that still are active) do earn respect in my eyes, their work is in my opinion just as well as the gameprogrammes work a bit of history with it's place in the demoscene. All in all, if you like a game buy it, if you don't please make sure you have access to the cracked version, someone else might like it.

2005-04-13 07:10

HCL

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 727

Going off topic..

Comparing a game of today and a demo production of today, it's only history that speaks for which one is possible to sell and which one is only possible to spread. I'm wondering why demo makers see CSDB as a brilliant place to spread their demo(s), while certain game makers just see it as a threat to their creations. What if i'll put a f**kn copy-protection on my next demo and sell it instead of spreading it here. Copyright is just lame by nature.

2005-04-13 07:20

H.O
Account closed

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 70

(All quotes from Thunderblade)

"Well, I haven't read all these postings, so just a few points."

Maybe you should have read the posts before trying to reply to them. That way you wouldnt have been so off the mark.

"1) 'Respected Sceners' - those who celebrated themselves back then in magazine charts made by themselves, are now creating those CSDb group/scener entries with the same empty words like 'elite' etc., without ever having done anything for the C64 scene at all. Cracking unprotected games is ridiculous. Period."

I dont see myself as respected. Heck, I dont even see myself as a scener but rather a retired scener these days. The time I put into CSDb -- which admittedly is a lot less then those who have contributed the most -- is to document those years I was active. One of the groups I was a member of -- Science 451 -- were active as crackers, and -- as we have already established -- since cracking was important in the birth of this scene I'd like be given a good reason if I can no longer provide information about the work that was done back then.

"4) Keeping up 'traditions' that don't make sense any more is mentally retarded."

And here I thought the database part of CSDb actually implied storing data about what has been done (and is done) on the scene. That includes data about cracks.

"5) Downvoting people who are doing a good job at what they do, but have a different opinion compared to you, is not only extremely lame. It's like not buying from someone because he is a jew."

Agreed, but the question is; is Macgyver doing a good job? As far as I can tell -- from an outsiders perspective -- he is abusing his powers. Now, this happens in a lot of communities; whether they are boards/forums, online games or databases, but some people cant just handle having more "power" (quoted since power implies strength, and I've always seen administrator rights as more of a burden) then the average user and starts abusing it. I've seen it happen on forums, and I've seen it happen on online games (mostly MUDs) and it's equally sad to see every time. You are given additional "power" to be able to serve the group better, not to better your own goals.

"6) Cracking on the C64 in 1982-1991 was heroic. Cracking on the C64 in 1992-2001 was ridiculous. Cracking on the C64 TODAY is, well. Guess what."

I left the scene 1990, so I wont comment on anything after that year. But, the point is; cracking is a part of the scene, shouldnt that equal that cracking also should be part of a scene database?

"And finally - look at all those people here who are against MacGyver and what he does,"

My problems are:

1. As a scene database, my opinion is that CSDb should contain data (including links) about cracks, since cracking was (I still dont want to comment on the scene as of today) a founding force in the scene as of today.

2. If there are restrictions to what can be linked, and what can not _this should be clearly stated in some way_ If we cant link to cracks of games released 95 or later (or whatever year is being set) this should be clearly stated. If we cant link to cracks of games released to Protovision (or whichever companies that is included) this should be clearly stated. It should be stated on the main page, and every time you add a production. This statement should also include a link to a longer text motivating why.

3. Macgyver has been accused of abusing his powers, by overtaking ownership of entries and seeing who has given him low votes. He needs to adress these accusations. I dont know who he is; clearly he wasnt active the same time period as I was, but whoever he is, it is a major concern _if_ an administrator is abusing his "powers" .

"or Protovision and what they do."

I've never commented on Protovision. In fact, I think it is great that someone cares enough about the c64 to form a commercial company. But, this discussion is not about Protovision of if what they are doing is good or not, but rather about what CSDb should contain and what liberties someone with admin rights should have.

"What do those people who are so upset here all have in common? They are afraid. They are so terribly afraid that the only thing they can be proud of in their lives - their 'cracking' activity - is taken away from them. Is put to a place where they can't be proud of it anymore. Which could turn the so called 'respected scener' to a 'despised person'. So, this tells it all. Their self confidence is suffering so heavily, that they shoot all they have against this kind of attack. I know what I am talking about, this happened in a similar way 10 years ago."

You seriously should read the posts you reply to before you reply to them. You dont know me, and you dont know why I posted or what I posted. If you had read my post you would at least know what I am saying and stop these silly accusations.

2005-04-13 07:26

Street Tuff

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 88

afaik streettuff gave macgyver a 1 as Public Relations Manager, and as we can all see, this seems rather justified

well... my votes are HIDDEN but you're absolutely correct.
my votes reflect my OPINION about how a person managed to do something in a special field or show respect to his/hers talent.

2005-04-13 07:32

Nightlord
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131

whenever there is a slightly unclear thread every post tends to pull the discussion to a direction where the author has a lot to say about, regardless of the initial points. we end up with threads like this where it is not clear anymore what was being discussed. in this thread what are you discussing?

a- cracking and how much respect it deserves
b- mac-gayver's use of admin rights
c- protovision and their worth
d- csdb site administration
e- c64.sk administration
f- turrican 3 fixes
g- copyrights

although it is all mixed up and quite unfruitful now, let me add a few of my views

- c64.sk and csdb are two very important and succesful sites . they contribute a lot to the pseudo-active atmosphere
- csdb administration has been quite inactive with regards to some of the feedback that came to this site for some unknown reason. things like transparent voting has been discussed many times and csdb admins did not act in parallel with the outcome of discussions. this lowers their credibility
- i do not play any protovision games but i think it is good to have a commercial company around at least to sell some hardware.
- noone has a right to view some hidden info even if he is an admin. especially when most members complained that info (votes) should not be hidden but the admins kept them hidden. it gives really terrible impression
- i respect crackers of the past and crackers of today. i do not see any "justification difference" between coding a demo for c64 or cracking.
- copyright and intellectual property are fundamentally flawed concepts of todays capitalist world. but it is a long philosophical discussion.

2005-04-13 08:17

Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044

The CSDB staff need to become involved. Why aren't they acting on what we have discussed? Are their heads up Protovision's arse that much that we have to unplug them (just like in the Matrix) so that they can see reality? Come on guys!!!

Whats going on!?!!

And as for MacGyver, he is just a COWARD and cannot react to any of the points and allegations made against him.

CBA and myself want our entries given back to us (Hockey Mania, Ice Guys and Bombmania).

MacGyver should have his access to this site revoked! He just abuses his power here.

This is not a discussion of the good things that CSDB and c64.sk does. This is a discussion on some bad things that have happened. Let's discuss these things (hello CSDB administration, is anyone home??)

2005-04-13 08:31

cba

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 935

Quote: The CSDB staff need to become involved. Why aren't they acting on what we have discussed? Are their heads up Protovision's arse that much that we have to unplug them (just like in the Matrix) so that they can see reality? Come on guys!!!

Whats going on!?!!

And as for MacGyver, he is just a COWARD and cannot react to any of the points and allegations made against him.

CBA and myself want our entries given back to us (Hockey Mania, Ice Guys and Bombmania).

MacGyver should have his access to this site revoked! He just abuses his power here.

This is not a discussion of the good things that CSDB and c64.sk does. This is a discussion on some bad things that have happened. Let's discuss these things (hello CSDB administration, is anyone home??)

Infact I've got back my entries , Ice Guys + Bomb Mania.
But I'm not allowed to add a link to an enternal place.

Great post done by HO/Science451 and Nightlord,
this thread should stick to the subject !

* Link removed due to copyright"

And to Mr. MacGuyver,

Can you for once just reply to the critics here and
just tell everybody why you are such a big boy using
your 'ADMIN' powers ?

Niels

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