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2023-12-22 18:03

Sander

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493

Graphics on C64 demoscene: Guide of Ethics – a Proposal

Dear fellow sceners,

This is an attempt to get more understanding among, and for, C64 demoscene pixel artists. It’s not written to limit anyone, but a prayer for more transparency.

Read the document here: ->Graphics on C64 demoscene: Guide of Ethics – a Proposal<-

We tried to give define and value different processes. Which is a result of discussion, where we saw mutual grounds and felt the need to write these down.
We will update the document periodically, when enough input has been gathered and sorted out.

We’d really love to hear your thoughts on the subjects in the document.
Please post them in this thread.

(Personally I will not always fully comply to these guidelines myself, but I will continue to be transparant about it. However, I do agree with the values communicated in this document.)

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2023-12-23 08:23

LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 79

What PAL said, I wholeheartedly agree. Also what NiM said.

I agree with most points in the document and will likely adhere to most. I disagree with some.

It could serve as guidebook, however the tone is a bit oppressive for my taste, and the way it is conceived and signed feels quite elitist.

I fully support the proper crediting of sources, which should be mandatory, indeed. That is ethics.

I don't like however how this standard ruleset, under the guise of voluntary, kind of bullies other artists into workflows and methods deemed "the standard" by few. Because it conveniently matches their workflow. Know what I'm saying?

2023-12-23 08:30

LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 79

Also workstages prove nothing, since they can be easily faked! That point is often overlooked.

I always love sharing workstages, and they are interesting to study and learn. But we can not create an atmosphere where artists feel forced to have people watch over their shoulders, figuratively speaking.

2023-12-23 09:17

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2871

"a Proposal" - proposal for what, specifically?

The document reads somewhat like this is aimed to end up as a set of rules in some kind of Code of Conduct people shall implicitly sign by attending "the scene".

I have yet to be convinced that Codes of Conduct do more good than harm. =)

2023-12-23 09:56

Fungus

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 633

The only rule is, there is no rules.

Also 300% agree with PAL.

The only reason I can see to present such things is that someone feels threatened, and that's a them problem.

2023-12-23 10:14

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11164

To me it looks like some people are really afraid of something. Whatever it is.

What happened to the good old "don't be lame unless you want us to call you lame"? I'll sign that!

Pfff

2023-12-23 12:40

Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1054

I've been mostly staying out of the wired ai threads that have been plaguing csdb as of late. Not because I don't have an opinion, but because the personal attacks and pitchforkery displayed by many were appalling to me.
But now that a document has been produced (without the personal attacks) and a normal discussion can hopefully be had, I think it's time I share my thoughts as well.

In general I encourage artists to be honest about their creative process and share workstages if they want.

However, I will most definitely *not* sign any document:

1) I think this is trying to solve a non-existant problem. You are making it sound like all major graphics compo's are infested with dishonest wiring lowlives stealing all trophies away. I challenge you to pm me one example: top 3 of X, Zoo, Gubb, Transmission, etc from the last 10 years that was an unfair podium winner. (pm so there's no naming & shaming in public)

2) People can use whatever process and tools they want. Who am I to dictate a specific creative workflow. No more photoshop? No more sample fuckery and THCM-mod? No more cross-compilers? No more animations? Come on.

3) "pre-jury" sounds easy on paper, but impossible to properly pull off in a party setting with tight deadlines. Who will be that jury? 97% of people cannot distinguish "proper" pixel art from wirejobs.
What is the exact, repeatable bar that artists are no longer allowed to cross? It is all arbitrary and will lead to ppl getting unfairly disqualified. Who is going to take responsibility for falsly excluding people?

4) We can trust our fellow sceners to do the right thing, there has been no cheating in major compos in recent years.

Quote:

Proposal for party organisers

- Take care of your competition rules.
- Make workstages mandatory for all of your graphics competitions.
- It’s a good idea to use competent pre-jury to supervise your competition before going public.
- Try to share all the entry information with your audience during the party and in the post-party releases. However, share the workstages only if the artist gives you a permission.

- The X compo rules will not change: "Respect your fellow artists, please do not wire or use AI"
- Workstages will not be mandatory, there is no time and no knowledge on separating wired from non-wired. If people really want to cheat, they will fake the workstages too.
- There will be no "pre-jury" of elitist conformist supervisors. Let your votes speak instead. I liked Sander's voting-table in one of the threads.
- Artists are free to share information in the voting system for everyone to read when they vote, but it will not be mandated.

And what LMan, Nim and Pal said.

2023-12-23 12:47

Peacemaker

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 243

what Burglar LMan, Nim, Pal said.

2023-12-23 13:28

F7sus4

Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 113

Quoting Burglar

1) I think this is trying to solve a non-existant problem. You are making it sound like all major graphics compo's are infested with dishonest wiring lowlives stealing all trophies away.

If that was the case, there would be nothing to debate, and no attempt in making "anti-cheat" measures would even be considered.

Quoting Burglar

4) We can trust our fellow sceners to do the right thing, there has been no cheating in major compos in recent years.

It's a non-falsifiable claim. We can't either prove or disprove it, unfortunately.

Quoting LMan

Also workstages prove nothing, since they can be easily faked! That point is often overlooked.

They can, but that would be an effort that would potentially make any technological shortcuts related to AI/conversion almost redundant (or at least burdensome enough), solely because of the amount of work required to manually adjust each stage to make it look trustworthy. The workstage requirement seems fair in my opinion, and taking a snapshot here and there on the way doesn't harm the process. It's quite established standard anyway.

2023-12-23 14:34

Peacemaker

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 243

Quote: Quoting Burglar
1) I think this is trying to solve a non-existant problem. You are making it sound like all major graphics compo's are infested with dishonest wiring lowlives stealing all trophies away.

If that was the case, there would be nothing to debate, and no attempt in making "anti-cheat" measures would even be considered.

Quoting Burglar
4) We can trust our fellow sceners to do the right thing, there has been no cheating in major compos in recent years.

It's a non-falsifiable claim. We can't either prove or disprove it, unfortunately.

Quoting LMan
Also workstages prove nothing, since they can be easily faked! That point is often overlooked.

They can, but that would be an effort that would potentially make any technological shortcuts related to AI/conversion almost redundant (or at least burdensome enough), solely because of the amount of work required to manually adjust each stage to make it look trustworthy. The workstage requirement seems fair in my opinion, and taking a snapshot here and there on the way doesn't harm the process. It's quite established standard anyway.

You seem to have missed the wired gfx with a perfect workstage at the AI compo, or? and i doubt this faking has taken long. its a easy task to be honest.

2023-12-23 15:51

Monte Carlos

Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 351

Quote: Embracing the Unpredictable Magic

Pixel art, the sheer joy it brings! Each square, a pixel, a piece of a magical puzzle. With limited colors come infinite possibilities, opening doors to a multi-level journey in art.

Yet, a demand for a solitary pilgrimage from idea to completion feels strange, especially when compared to the free-spirited ethos of demos. The demo scene thrives on real-time trickery, resisting the need for explanations. Pixel art isn't about conformity; it's about the unexpected thrill of creation in the moment.

Whether painting freely, using reference images, blending elements from our world, or incorporating AI-generated ideas, the canvas is limitless within its constraints. The Commodore 64 platform may not hold the assets found in the real world, and there's nothing wrong with importing video or stock footage to enhance creations.

Enter AI, not to steal the show but as a creative partner, suggesting and enhancing our artistic waltz. Will AI take over? No, it's a co-pilot, enhancing the human mind, where emotions are the strokes that color our canvas.

Pixel art's future isn't surrendering to AI; it could embrace it, working together as captains with AI as our copilot. However, automated pipelines that claim perfection raise suspicion. True art involves the unpredictability of creation, not a rigid, unchanged pixel through multiple stages.

Whether it's the Commodore 64 or anything else, art is about freedom. No suffocating rules.

For many old-timers, the epic moments were recreating something from famous art or images. Is that all gone now? Is it illegal? Talent, recreating Vangelis' portrait and more from reference images—is that a crime? The methods are unclear, but is it wrong?

No matter what one expresses, asserts, or shares openly within our community, there seems to be a tendency for someone to disapprove or dissent, leading to internal chaos for the individual who dared to speak. Let us foster an environment of openness and mutual acceptance. The escalating conflicts within our community are becoming overwhelming, and it's time for a more harmonious and understanding approach.

In the end, amidst the debates and complexities, let's not lose sight of why we embarked on this creative journey. Pixel art, demos, and the Commodore 64 are not just about perfection or conformity. They're about the sheer joy of creation, the thrill of pushing boundaries, and the magic that unfolds when passionate minds come together.

Let's revel in the freedom to express, explore, and compete—not as adversaries but as companions in this creative odyssey. In the pixelated realms and beyond, let's celebrate the camaraderie that arises from shared enthusiasm.

So, here's to late nights of coding, to spontaneous strokes of the pixel brush, to the sound of demos playing on repeat, and to the friendships that transcend pixels and screens. Let's venture beyond our comfort zones, compete in new arenas, and create memories that echo with the laughter of kindred spirits.

In the grand tapestry of the demo scene, may the threads of creativity, friendship, and adventure weave together seamlessly. Let's cherish the thrill of the journey, the beauty of imperfections, and the boundless joy of creating alongside the most fantastic, creative friends. Here's to having a blast—on and off the screen—because in the end, it's the shared moments of fun and creativity that make this journey truly extraordinary.

Very great document - I can not sign it, I do not want to sign it- I want a raw, freee andlimitless scene and everything goes... that is why this scene still blossoms, why try to kill it?

your PAL

Is this the longest post in this forum???