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2022-07-27 13:37

wacek

Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513

Release id #218343 : E2IRA

User Comment
Submitted by Mojzesh [PM] on 27 July 2022
@wacek Before I left arise (a year ago), the only language on PC you knew at that time was PC Basic. Your poor coding skills and the absence of own demosystem developed solely by arise (it was all spaghetti code) was one of the key points that made me leave your group (among several others). It’s clear to me - especially by judging your answer to this - that you didn’t write the compressor yourself (don’t lie, I know you well enough) … To change my mind, just prove it (there are lots of ways to prove it without the need to reveal the source code).

And do you finally know in 2022 how many CPU cycles are eaten by a given number of sprites, you so-called ‘brilliant coder’?

Ps. You were using the same compressor in the past and you told me so yourself back then you didn’t write it :D

2022-07-27 14:04

wacek

Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513

@mojzesh, you greatest skill is not coding, it's your contempt for other human beings. And also, lying whenever it suits you. Too bad there is no CSDb chart for that.

When we were doing ES1RA you could easily say that you don't like the "demosystem" and propose your own or improve it. You didn't. It was ok then, apparently. By the way, the "demosystem" was really some small procedures and few jumps from the main to loader and back. The name was soooo tongue in cheek. Still, you did not complain about the demosystem when the demo won the compo? Strange that.

The COMPRESSOR for the CONVERTED frames (read it with understanding, because I am pretty sure you confused two different tools) was coded by myself. 12 months is a lot of time, I guess.

I am also pretty sure that you are thinking about CSAM. CSAM is an excellent, widely used TOOL, the output of which is converted frames (you don't have to use the internal compression). The converted frames are then compressed by my own compressor. Hope you get it this time. Your logic is like saying you have to write your own Photoshop (Premiere, KickAss) clone to have some gfx (video, code) for your demo, otherwise you need to credit the authors of Photoshop (Premiere, KickAss) in your demo. If you don't understand how TOOLS work or how CREDITS work, that is your problem. Oh, and maybe read CSAM documentation for crediting details. I did. As much as I appreciate Algorhithm's groundbreaking work, there is no credit required, and all the demos on csdb that used CSAM do not feature credits for him.

Also, where were you with this credit talk when I was using CSAM for ES1RA? Another proof you are full of shit.

I never called myself a brilliant coder. On the contrary. Everyone knows I started "real" coding some years ago, and I am a beginner at best. Also, I don't program in the "normal" life. Still, my coding skills might be poor, but together with Luke we kicked your ass. Instead of whining do a better demo, and get higher in the charts. This is how scene works. Put some WORK where your MOUTH is.

2022-07-27 18:15

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357

You could start with making a new entry for the updated release :)

2022-07-27 20:53

Mojzesh

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 12

@wacek Enough of your BS!

Quote:

@mojzesh, your greatest skill is not coding, it's your contempt for other human beings. And also, lying whenever it suits you. Too bad there is no CSDb chart for that.

Hmmm... when arguments are finished, personal attacks start. You showed your contempt for other people last year, on both FB and c64scene.pl, your venom is still there for all to read - yet you dare judge?!.

Quote:

When we were doing ES1RA you could easily say that you don't like the "demosystem" and propose your own or improve it. You didn't. It was ok then, apparently. By the way, the "demosystem" was really some small procedures and few jumps from the main to loader and back. The name was soooo tongue in cheek. Still, you did not complain about the demosystem when the demo won the compo? Strange that.

I told you a few times that your "demosystem" is just a piece of spaghetti code. In the end, apart from linking the demo (because you weren't even able to compile Spindle exe on PC), I was only doing one part. So your circus, your monkeys. And literally that was the case, because we arrived at the second thing which was my disappointment on the entire ES1RA design, the fact that you didn't cooperate with anyone from Arise team, but instead you were just working on your own secretly with Jammer for most part of it. On top of that I'll add that all your animations used in ES1RA are not yours and have been simply stolen from the internet, you great designer. I was super-disappointed on that fact and that's when I started to have big doubts whether joining Arise many years ago was a really good idea, knowing how Wacek deals with any work and cooperation with the rest of the team.

Quote:

The COMPRESSOR for the CONVERTED frames (read it with understanding, because I am pretty sure you confused two different tools) was coded by myself. 12 months is a lot of time, I guess.

You are confusing the terms here. Converter is something that takes one format of image or data and changes it by transforming it to other format (sometimes gaining some data size results) but its main purpose is not a compression. Using converter really sounds like not much of a job has been done by the tool, right? Just data transformation. Easy-peasy.

But it's misleading to call CSAM a CONVERTER, where CSAM is lossy compressor or Quantizer, so you overused the word CONVERTER.

What you probably did here is you took the result of what CSAM output and you fed it into some kind of encoder / decoder which you (maybe) wrote yourself. And again, you overused the word here, by calling your ENCODER a COMPRESSOR. The data has been already compressed by CSAM, you just reorganised it and / or ENCODED it.

This is what happens when non-coders start to explain things they don't understand in the first place.

Quote:

I am also pretty sure that you are thinking about CSAM.

Oh, here we go, you recalled it now. But didn't you just claim one post before that you wrote the entire COMPRESSOR (as you call it) yourself?
So who is lying here? Are you seriously playing dumb?

Quote:

CSAM is an excellent, widely used TOOL,

I don't care how widely it's used, we are discussing the production which tends to be 10/10, isn't it ?
So let's stick to the subject.

Quote:

the output of which is converted frames (you don't have to use the internal compression).
output of which is COMPRESSED frames
The converted frames are then compressed by my own compressor.

By your ENCODER

Quote:

Hope you get it this time.

Keep educating your kids first...

Quote:

Your logic is like saying you have to write your own Photoshop (Premiere, KickAss) clone to have some gfx (video, code) for your demo, otherwise you need to credit the authors of Photoshop (Premiere, KickAss) in your demo.

You should at least mention which tools you used, for someone to assess whether they can compete with you.
Also personally YES, I would write my own compressor, just to have a FULL control over it, and not to be pushed to use any kind of extra & poor workarounds like additional ENCODING / DECODING phases.
But you're simply too weak/not knowledgeable to do that.

Quote:

If you don't understand how TOOLS work or how CREDITS work

Bla bla bla... Take a long, hard look in the mirror.

Quote:

, that is your problem. Oh, and maybe read CSAM documentation for crediting details. I did. As much as I appreciate Algorhithm's groundbreaking work, there is no credit required, and all the demos on csdb that used CSAM do not feature credits for him.

Again, we don't talk about other productions here, but this particular one.

Quote:

Also, where were you with this credit talk when I was using CSAM for ES1RA? Another proof you are full of shit.

Again, personal attack. Is this all you have to say? I complained to you in our private conversations and I had even argued with you about using such animations as IMHO it's totally lame, especially if the animations aren't yours like all anims in ES1RA. I had a mixture of satisfaction of winning and your lameness. Maybe I should have left Arise at that time, I regret that in hindsight. You are extremely ego-centric and very unpleasant to deal with when 'cooperating'. I'm not surprised that most good coders have left Arise.

Quote:

I never called myself a brilliant coder. On the contrary. Everyone knows I started "real" coding some years ago, and I am a beginner at best. Also, I don't program in the "normal" life.

So again, are you good enough to be at the 1st place ? I don't think so.

Quote:

Still, my coding skills might be poor, but together with Luke we kicked your ass.

Buahahahaha, don't you forget that you lost at the MD22 Party?
We won the 1st place and the gold C64 is in my possession, not yours. So who kicked whose asses? xD Frankly, you don't even know what that means.
Also, what would you do without all those people around you who do most of the job yet you then take all the credit for it, AS IF you did it all?
Without Luke you would be nowhere. And afaik Luke also hates you and that's why he left Arise for a while. I'm actually surprised he agreed to come back and cooperate with you again. Poor Luke.

And hopefully soon enough nobody will even remember E2IRA, there are way better productions out there, with REAL code underneath.

Quote:

Instead of whining do a better demo, and get higher in the charts. This is how scene works. Put some WORK where your MOUTH is.

You are not in the position to tell me how I shall live or when & what to release. That's purely mine and my colleagues' business.

Now, to all people who voted 10 for this demo - do you really think that this production should still be called a masterpiece and Wacek a brilliant top-notch programmer ? Take into account that the crucial part of E2IRA was only possible because someone else (Algorithm/Algotech in this case) created a tool for it - otherwise it would NOT be possible. Bear in mind that 90% of the demo is a lossy compressed animation - and that initially wacek said it was only him & Luke who made the demo possible. I hope that by now the curtain has dropped and revealed that the "king" is naked.

@wacek This is my last post about this issue. Please don't expect any more responses. Idz do psychiatry, bo ton tego co wypisujesz wskazuje, ze masz nierowno pod sufitem; zachowujesz sie jak burak z IQ rzodkiewki, a to nawet do ciebie nie jest podobne.

2022-07-27 21:09

wacek

Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513

Nothing to comment. Pot calling the kettle black, accusing of personal attacks which he himself started (and idiotically finished with).
Feeding of this talentless confabulating troll stops here.
You don't deserve my energy.
Bye.

2022-07-27 21:20

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969

Credit where credit is due. This includes tools, especially when so vital to the production.

But do go on!

2022-07-29 03:10

Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 659

Yeah, if a tool is a big part of a demo, it should get a decent credit. A little startup anim, even, like we did for Sparkle in Memento Mori :-)

(Nb. I’m replying to Krill here for those who didn’t figure it out.. to tie in with the “why are there IRQ loader idents now?” thread from a month or so ago)

2022-07-29 12:47

TheRyk

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219

Some countenance, please.

Stick to arguments and discussing facts and avoid personal fight in public and watch your language, too.

If this is getting too nasty, it will be closed.

2022-07-29 13:32

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969

Quoting Raistlin

Yeah, if a tool is a big part of a demo, it should get a decent credit. A little startup anim, even, like we did for Sparkle in Memento Mori :-)

(Nb. I’m replying to Krill here for those who didn’t figure it out.. to tie in with the “why are there IRQ loader idents now?” thread from a month or so ago)

Nice try. =)

Anyways, i have it on good authority that there was substantial post-processing/tweaking/re-encoding of CSAM output.
So while an essential tool for the demo, it did not provide a simple automagical press-button-be-done process at all.

2022-07-29 14:12

Mojzesh

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 12

@krill Except for a fact that this demo is trying to cheat viewers by tricking them to think that most of the effects are calculated in realtime (which I must agree it would be a huge achievement if it was true, but unfortunately it is still just an animation). So if you can swallow that, then it’s your business. For me (and I guess other good C64 coders too) a demo was always a way of demonstrating the power of the machine on which it’s running on, and not the power of the machine where it was precalculated. Scene is full of people with very blurred knowledge of assembly language and what is really achievable and what is not. This demo is not an huge achievement as people think it is. (You can precalc much better things on PC, but what’s the point of this?) What should then the proper coders of realtime effects do now, leave the scene?

2022-07-29 14:17

Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335

@Mojzesh

1. 1MHz is not a lot of horse power so you adjust for it, whatever it takes. Especially C64 is definitely the weakest CPU among all 8bits but makes up for it thanks to brilliant and efficient VIC-II.
2. demo is not only code and coder's splendor ;) IMHO, it's a battle of ideas first of all. Both math and animations are great playfield for ideas.

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