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2005-04-12 10:15

Slartibartfast
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230

** Link removed by CSDb staff due to copyright. Please do not provide download links to this **

Well, there has been a few of these notices today, on certain Protovision releases that have been cracked and released by some people on CSDb.

Cracking has always been a large part of the scene, arguably the biggest and also what has ultimately ensured the scene to exist today.

If it weren't for cracking, piracy if you will, many games simply wouldn't be available on the web today. The C64dtv wouldn't have much of a lineup, all the games on it were cracks from the scene.

Now this issue has come to CSDb again, over old releases of Protovision games. Download links removed, to files which are definitely a part of the scene.

I can understand the policy on this, it's a way to protect CSDb against legal action. Other sites, for instance GB64, have tackled this by not hosting the files and just providing links to them.

But CSDb won't allow even that, if someone has an issue with their copyrighted work being available, the links will be removed. Even links provided by the user in their comment to the entry, will be censored and removed.

There is nothing regarding this policy in the CSDb FAQ, yet there is this disclaimer:

"Who's responsible for this?
We cannot take responsibility for the content of this database as all information is submitted by users."

So, that says straight out that CSDb is not responsible for the content.

It can be said that this is a way to protect CSDb in future, but from whom exactly? Can anyone honestly see Chronosoft or Protovision sueing anyone? Or if this is a measure to protect CSDb, could it go further and remove all cracks from the site?

On the other hand, CSDb are just trying to protect themselves, from Protovision apparently. Should we take the old debate over piracy directly to Protovision? As sceners themselves, they should know better than to be taking on this issue against sceners. Don't we all know by now that the people who would download these cracks, are not the same people that would buy it? That some of the people that get the game for free may even consider buying it at a later point?

One of the Protovision founders was a cracker himself, other members have been crackers, swappers or undoubtedly recipients of pirated software themselves.

This seemed to start with Macgyver altering a release of a PTV game here yesterday. A member of Protovision and also a CSDb admin. He was a swapper in the past.

Is this censorship really necessary? Do Protovision really think they would lose sales of these games, does CSDb really think there is any threat of legalities from an admin of this site?

This is an issue that strikes deep with many in the scene, and this site is an essential part of the scene today.

Surely there must be a better way to deal with this.

So let's discuss it here rather than in comments on these censored releases ;)

2005-04-12 10:36

hollowman

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474

perhaps protovision thinks they would lose sales if people were able to try out their games first

2005-04-12 10:37

Mermaid

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338

These games belong to Protovision and this database belongs to NoName. If they don't want cracked versions available for download here then there's not really anything to discuss, is there?

2005-04-12 10:43

Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044

* Is this a SCENE database or a SALES database?

* What type of scene database pays attention to copyright? A kiddie-database? Surely this site can handle such releases without this wild-censoring. The releases on FTP sites are NOT the responsibility of this database's administration.

* Does the whole argument about piracy have to be done all over again within the scene? That is crazy. This scene has existed for two decades, shouldn't we be the most mature scene of them all? Or are we still trying to discuss the principles?

* And it seems crack intros are a casualty of the whole crack thing on csdb as well, that's just not right!

2005-04-12 10:46

Twoflower

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434

Remind me to make a copyrighted demo til the next party. Without copyprotection? Yes. And only two-player mode, with support for the 4-player adapter (tm).

Seriously though, I can't understand the reason for not providing links to the releases themselves. This issue of the scene contra the sceners which make games have been a hot potato ever since Sodan first released "The Vikings" for Kele Line in 1986/87. Back then, when you basically could become rich from your work, it was quite another thing. These people could make a living out of it and felt threatened (eg. Sodan) and some just didn't care (eg. Ian&Mic, God&Hake, etc.) since they understood that the scene hardly was the target for these games.

Now things are different, and perhaps both we and the makers of the games should view things from other angles. First, you can't make good money out of C-64 games anylonger. If you're after the money, you're on the goddamned wrong scene. Second, people which buy games do it for the sake of the package and the feeling of getting a new original. Cronosoft, for example, keeps this view and doesn't really care if the games are spread on the scene earlier. The reason for tht is that they're mostly targeted towards a retro-scene, which want the stuff, the tape, the jewelcase and the packaging. I've actually bought a Richard Bayliss game (!) from them myself, just for the sake of enjoying the original, loading it from tape, etc. And I can tell you, the packaging, the anticipation and the procedure around loading it gave it value.

Perhaps this is what PTV games lack? Some distance to the games and some polishing on the product, graphical design, the onefilers (Hockey Mania, are not available on tape (which is the easiest way to make a good packaging). No, instead you get a disk and a diskcover in a cheap plastic bag. How handy. The thing which is left to value is the game itself, so that's why they are so keen on protecting it.

2005-04-12 10:51

Mermaid

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338

mature and scene in the same sentence, shouldn't there be an "im" there somewhere. Or was it a typo for manure?

2005-04-12 10:53

Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044

I've purchased several games from Protovision and Twoflower's point is quite right. When I made those purchases it was to have the originals. Just like when I got my last boxed original which was SWORD OF HONOUR back in 1995. What a feeling! But the Protovision originals are quite cheap as far as their packaging is concerned. Heck, for the price you pay you should at least get some type of packaging, plastic bags don't cost that much, especially when ordered in bulk.

In regards to censoring the links, I agree with Twoflower again, censoring on a "SCENE" database is wrong. Collectors of cracks will download cracks. Collectors of original will order the original.

2005-04-12 10:56

Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044

Quote: mature and scene in the same sentence, shouldn't there be an "im" there somewhere. Or was it a typo for manure?

Mermaid, to explain, the scene has been around long enough to have had these discussions before (in fact many times). Why are people still questioning certains aspects of the scene? A cracker cracks games. A coder codes. A collector of originals collects originals. A collector of cracks collects cracks. Is it that difficult to understand?

2005-04-12 11:04

Mermaid

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338

Jazzcat, to explain, I was making a statement about the scene. Is it that difficult to understand?

Also I don't see why being anti copyright is more mature than being pro copyright. Anyway...who cares, it is all manure in the end.

2005-04-12 11:07

fade
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290

STFU

Protovision are selling games to their scene friends.

STFU
Oh.. and Bayliss sux :)

2005-04-12 11:10

Mermaid

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338

Thanks for proving my point Fade

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