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2024-10-07 19:19

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 203

What is PETSCII - A guide for compo orgas

Lately, We've seen several cases of releases that don't adhere to PETSCII standard being entered into compos. Examples are: 11th place at Revision 2024 Textmode Graphics compo called "U-MOD3L", 4th place at Deadline 2024 Textmode Graphics compo called "Depth Logo with Obligatory Skull & Blood" and 2nd place at Xenium 2024 ASCII/ANSI/PETSCII compo called "Fantastic 4 Cracking Group logo".

The first mentioned example uses a custom character set instead of standard PETSCII. The second and third mentioned examples use multiple background colors and a custom combination of both "upper" and "lower" PETSCII character sets which is not possible in standard PETSCII.

Several PETSCII editors/paint programs out there allow for this faux/"fantasy" modes by untying the newcomer authors from original hardware restrictions. Some of them churn out C64 executables that utilize either normal character mode but with custom character set defined and written along with the displayer, ECM mode again with custom character set being written in the prg file, or downright hires bitmap mode (which is way out of even most lenient definition of "textmode graphics"). This furtherly confuses both newcomer authors and compo orgas because it leaves them under false impression that the file is compliant with standard PETSCII.

The shortest possible definition of PETSCII would be: if a picture can be recreated by using BASIC to print it on the screen (thx Groepaz) then it's a PETSCII. Or, if you can recreate it with no commands whatsoever (other than 2 POKEs for border/paper colors), by physically using cursor keys and the rest of the C64 keyboard Raquel Meyers style then it's a PETSCII for sure. I know compo orgas can't go writing BASIC programs or playing around with a real C64. Therefore I've attached a precise PETSCII specification at the bottom of this text. The origin of this specification is Shine's PETSCII World Discord server and the author is wbochar (a PETSCII artist and coder/maintainer of Petmate). Now, I'm aware that orgas can't reprint all this text when organizing a compo, but if they read and understand it, I'm sure they can distill the gist of it into something shorter that fits their needs. As long as they themselves are aware of the precise definition. Additionally, if future orgas are not sure about a specific entry, they can always contact Shine's PETSCII World on Discord or X, as the place is inhabited by nice people ready to help.

=======================================================================

Single Frame 'standard' PETSCII in PRG format

1. Uses built in character rom, UPPER or LOWER case (no mixing or flipping between cases).
2. No relocating ROM's, soft/custom roms, or copied ROM's.
3. petscii/data in standard (for that machine) screen and color memory area (if there is a color area)
4. Frame size is the default character editor dimensions for that platform (c64: 40x25 chars)
5. static background and border color (if that machine has that)
6. loops showing the picture (ie "jmp *")
7. No sprites, music, splits. rasterbars or other code manipulating the system. If you have to clarify something else thats legal, then assume No.
8. Auto starts from basic

So basically the PRG (program) on c64 just loads the screen chars and colors, sets the background, border and "pauses/loops" showing the pic.
Most of the time, I mean 99% we are talking about a c64 showing the petscii.
But technically, there are few platforms out there with their own distinct PETSCII/Colors/Frame implementations.
examples:
c64: 40x25 chars, 16 colors, background and border color.
PetX032: 40x25 or 80x25 chars, Mono Color (green/White), black background and no border color. There are multiple Char roms available for various pet versions..
vic20: 22x23 chars, Color is Fluid.., border 8 colors, background can have 16. The char roms are closer to the Pet than the c64
c128, c16... all have different color, screen size and rom differences..
So when you enter a compo or post a 'PETSCII' online.. we are usually talking about c64 40x25 chars.
If the compo has specific rules like "C64 Micro PETSCII 16x16 Mono Color" then override the values in the list above with the compo values.
Which means I can put 16 x 16 anywhere on the 40x25 screen with one color and choose another color for the Background, Border.
Any messing with the underlying char ROM's makes this a highres image that resembles a PETSCII, but is not a PETSCII.
The whole fun of this, is to work within the confines of PETSCII.
It's great to make art however you want to do it.. but if you want to call it a PETSCII image.. then those are the rules/guidelines.
There are many other formats that are PETSCII.. Wide and Long that scroll, animations, gfx demos. They all use the default charset/colors for that platform.

... 54 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2024-10-08 11:13

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2948

4gentE: This has nothing to do with orga ignorance, but rather with how lenient or strict any platform-specific rules (if they even exist) are interpreted.

It's all quite arbitrary anyways, and as for Deadline, in a multi-platform compo called "text mode", the entries were perfectly within the published (and yes, rather lenient regarding PETSCII) compo rules. Thus, there was no basis for disqualification.

That said, this kind of rule detail is always subject to change from party to party.

2024-10-08 15:42

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 203

@Krill:
I’m looking for constructive suggestions here.
I understand what you said, but don’t understand where is it going?
Are you saying that everything is allright and nothing should be done?

About ignorance. The guy who made that #2 Xenium faux PETSCII entry felt encouraged enough to insult me on Pouet. I warned Darya about the dubious entry, suggested they take counsel during the show. Dismissed. Venom makes fun of this on Pouet. Why did they even accept something that was not .prg and not .d64 as PETSCII? How would you call this if not ignorance? Dontgiveafuckery perhaps? Not knowing something is not a disgrace. Not wanting to learn and lashing out at ones who know and try to teach you is a disgrace. For example, psenough did not know the exact PETSCII specs, so he asked. Now he knows. This is and should be normal, rational behaviour.

We need specs everyone understands. Letting it all go for anybody to do whatever he/she wants (and out of ignorance, not mischief mind you) and not trying to educate is a disaster. What goes next? And why? They don’t let MP3s in “tracked music” compos do they?

@jmin:
Why not trying to help the newbies out?
That’s exactly what I’m trying to do. Help the newbies out. Tools that hide the facts from them and make them “cheat” are not helping them. They are adding to confusion and are putting them in “entitled defense” mode. Like that guy who was insistent that original PET charset was in fact also present in C64 ROM, and that he was the first in history to discover it. Do you think, if he continued with this hobby, he will be very happy that a sneaky tool made him say that?
Like I mentioned somewhere, I’m willing to show any of them how to code the PETSCII displayer themselves because it’s embarassingly trivial as we all know. I don’t think usage of instant tools that do things user does not understand under the hood is really what this hobby is about in the long(er) run.
Arrogant or ignorant orgas are also doing these newbies a disservice.

2024-10-08 17:21

jmin

Registered: Feb 2024
Posts: 8

@4gentE: Gotcha. A "Check your PETSCII submission"-tool would indeed be helpfull for both, orgas and graphicians and most likely would solve a lot of confusion, stress and frustration and at the same time might even lower the barrier for folks starting out. Not sure though if .png should be the input format; most tools do offer a more "native" export format that could be used while highlighting the fact that PETSCII isn't pixels but just text typed out in the machine's build-in charset - IMHO plain, MC and ECM PETSCII should still be supported though ;-)

Further, coding a "PETSCII displayer [...] because it’s embarassingly trivial" is not that trivial if you have no connection to coding at all (and not everyone's goal either; i don't see me (yet) coding a hires viewer) but again, the "Check your PETSCII submission" tool could solve that problem too. Output could be a high quality .prg file which again would make everyone happy.

Persuading orgas to require usage of such a tool is a different story though but who knows, if it makes life easier for everyone, it might work out. PETSCII pros are hopefully open-minded enough for using that tool too without feeling belittled.

2024-10-08 18:36

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11317

Quote:

Not sure though if .png should be the input format; most tools do offer a more "native" export format that could be used

Many tools export .prg files with displayer, or some crazy other format. I am trying to add more of them to petconv right now :)

However, i think a toolchain that is suitable for quick checking should involve VICE for running the provided prg and making a screenshot (this can be automated fully) and then some tool can be used to check the result for valid petscii. Else you'd have to require the picture being provided in some particular format, which will not be very practical.

PS:

x64sc -default -console -warp -limitcycles 100000 -exitscreenshot foo.png -autostartprgmode 1 foo.prg

(experiment with number of cycles so it doesnt take too long and still provides proper result)

2024-10-08 18:52

WVL

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 891

I never tried, but png2prg also allows to convert a png to petscii. I don't know if the conversion is perfect, but wouldnt a simple check with png2prg be all that is needed to confirm PETSCII-ness?

I bet Burglar could even add it to the Votox engine.

2024-10-08 18:54

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2948

Quoting 4gentE

Are you saying that everything is allright and nothing should be done?

The only problem, perhaps, is allowing to mislabel the entry to "PETSCII" rather than "enhanced/loose/somethinglike PETSCII", but the entry was still conforming to the rules.

2024-10-08 18:58

Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1075

Quoting jmin

Further, coding a "PETSCII displayer [...] because it’s embarassingly trivial" is not that trivial if you have no connection to coding at all (and not everyone's goal either; i don't see me (yet) coding a hires viewer) but again, the "Check your PETSCII submission" tool could solve that problem too. Output could be a high quality .prg file which again would make everyone happy.

I already shared the tool to do all that above, add the -display flag and you get a crunched prg with displayer.

Quoting chatGPZ

However, i think a toolchain that is suitable for quick checking should involve VICE for running the provided prg and making a screenshot (this can be automated fully) and then some tool can be used to check the result for valid petscii.

This is how votox (X voting system, also used at Transmission) works. Except I have to press Alt-F4 to close vice (waiting for a good screenshot moment with demos/4ks).
It's trivial for me to add petscii validation in the process.
So far I only doubted once that an entry was true petscii, I was wrong and Ernie won the compo :P

2024-10-08 19:28

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 203

@Krill
Quote:

but the entry was still conforming to the rules.

The rules said “no custom fonts”. The entry that used chars from both sets can either be said to use a custom font or it’s a bitmap.

If we go the "enhanced/loose/somethinglike PETSCII" route, meaning allowing custom charsets, then the compo in fact becomes “tiled gfx compo”, and every NES game screen, every NES gfx complies, also all those superb technolandscapes Ray Manta expertly crafts. And this kind of compo would be awesome, just awsome. But it’s not Textmode (ASCII / ANSI / PETSCII).

Oh, and all those beautiful logos from Raistlin’s last compo. All of them are custom char gfx.

Please contribute something helpful (like everybody else here, big THANKS everybody!) Please. What you’re writing doesn’t really help. Normally, I like blabbering away with you like there’s no tomorrow, but I don’t feel like going back and forth with you around exact wording/unimportant stuff in this case. No “well, tecnically”-s. I really really care about this subject. And I’ve talked to quite a few PETSCII artists about it.

2024-10-08 19:54

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11317

Quote:

So far I only doubted once that an entry was true petscii, I was wrong and Ernie won the compo :P

LOL (awesome gfx)

2024-10-08 20:01

jmin

Registered: Feb 2024
Posts: 8

@Burglar: I know, I was looking at it from the three contestants' point of view mentioned in the initial post and I guess using a command line tool wasn't on their mind at all for verifying or optimize anything beyond their editor's output. Here, a hurdle to take before submission might be key. Well, except, newbies should be kept out of a compo; an actual argument that I've read before too "to keep high level of quality" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

BTW, I was in a similar spot when starting out earlier this year during a vacation only having a Chromebook available; tripped over unexpected stuff like correct screenshot size for CSDb and correct color palette for the compo in question and so on.

Anyway, focus might be more on orgas, so yes, those guys don't have any excuse not using already available tools for validation.

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