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2021-10-18 00:00

hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4723

Release id #210333 : Babes

Discussion emerged. Posts below:

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 17 October 2021
Looking forward to more tests btw. On real drives.

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 17 October 2021
Ran it on a PAL 250469 REV A with a 1541-II without fastloader/cart. Cold boots between all runs. Tested it 20 times (even loaded different babes each time). Every load worked. I would say this release contains no loader bug (at least no bug that should matter), whatever you guys say, as it works, and should in emulation too. :)

And no fixed emulator version should be needed.

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 17 October 2021
Copyfault: Making a modification should have its own entry imho. But I will try to run it from disk a couple of times too. If that works 100% the goal should be to emulate this behaviour in emulation too, even if it's a "bug" that makes it fail in Vice and 1541U2+. The goal for emulation is to mimic real hw. We should not make fixes for stuff to run on emulators. But I'll be back with a report.

User Comment
Submitted by Copyfault [PM] on 17 October 2021
Thanks for all your comments! To clear it up: on my real hw it refused to start most of the time! I did not yet try a real drive, so this might ease the pain.

Now the funny things after reading your proposals:
- it seems to always load with 1541-uII+ if I choose AR 6.0 as cart
- I did not ask to get it run for the actual contents but rather out of interest for such an edge case, since sometimes this sparks new ideas for exploitations
- even when I get this to load completely, it does always do a direct exit from the selection menu and the note is the only thing I get to see

The only real fix was the noloader-version by Ian Coog, since this can be loaded without any problems independant of the system setup (real thing/emu/cartridge setting) plus this one stays in the selection menu as one would expect. @IanCoog: thanks for fixing! Though I was sure this is some standard thing I have to admit that I did not know by heart the steps that need to be taken to get rid of the autostart stuff!

Would it be acceptable to add a dl link for this noloader-version to this entry? Or is this already "something new"?

User Comment
Submitted by Krill [PM] on 17 October 2021
Seems to be a race-condition, i.e., a bug in the code, not so much the emulator.

Set breakpoint in drive at $0403, then load with ,8,1.
When it breaks into the monitor,

                    vv                        vv vv
good >8:0000  0f 01 01 0f  01 00 00 00  1f 10 06 00  12 00 12 00
evil >8:0000  0f 01 80 0f  01 00 00 00  1f 10 06 00  12 00 12 00

Success depends on whether the block at T06/S00 has been loaded yet or not.

That it seems to always work on the real thing might be a meta-stability, and may depend a lot on various delays caused by physical disk access and disk layout.
That it reliably breaks in VICE (plain BASIC) might have to do with that.
I'd not be surprised if it randomly breaks on the real thing, too (with a somewhat lower probability than breaking in VICE).

User Comment
Submitted by Groepaz [PM] on 17 October 2021
It actually works in VICE (and chameleon too, likely also 1541) when loading it with AR5/6 fastload enabled. Very odd :)

(it's also not worth the trouble... pretty meh pictures :/)

User Comment
Submitted by Groepaz [PM] on 17 October 2021
How is it "faulty" though? it started up no problem 3 times in a row on the real thing :)

User Comment
Submitted by iAN CooG [PM] on 17 October 2021
Copyfault: that's the actual easier way to run it, by removing the faulty autoboot code, it's a simple diskeditor/hexeditor task.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f0y6kc4oo30rm3n/Babes-noloader.D64?dl..

User Comment
Submitted by Groepaz [PM] on 17 October 2021
The most important question is - does it work on the real thing?

User Comment
Submitted by Copyfault [PM] on 17 October 2021
Stumbled over this after seeing the new comments lately. So I tried to run it on the real thing (with 1541U-II+) and on the latest vice emulator also - without sucess!

Either it just stops loading, or -in the rare cases it manages to finish loading and starts to decrunch- the selection screen is built up but left towards the note immediately, without any chance to select "Collection".

Any ideas what's going on here? Any chances to create a... let's say "fixed version"?

User Comment
Submitted by TheRyk [PM] on 12 October 2021
yeah some drive emulation killer, I also needed several tries

RRR!

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 12 October 2021
Took me a couple of tries in Vice to get it running (run it without fastloader), but eventually it works.

... 32 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2021-10-19 20:07

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357

Try using a C64 sometimes :)

2021-10-19 20:08

Joe

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 226

Try making the emulator 100% :D

2021-10-19 20:09

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357

If you'd bother reading what you reply to.... oh well. Ian even fixed it for the emulamers :)

2021-10-20 15:22

Copyfault

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 475

Quoting Joe

Must be some very important collection making so many people discussing it and.. There is no graphician acredited for the original work?
Hope you get the intriguing disc-whatever-emulation/real-stuff working ;D
Laughing my arse off!

While I'm sure the "artist" did hide for a reason (just as Groepaz already assumed), this loader quirk *really* seems to be connected to something not-yet fully understood. Guess the scene has reached a level that makes certain people behave like "Platon handling g64-files for science" - and I do think this is ok :)

Quoting Groepaz

Try using a C64 sometimes :)

Quoting Joe

Try making the emulator 100% :D

Interestingly the loader does not only break the commonly spread sw emulation, but also most of the hw emulation as we have it on 1541ultimate. So using a real c64 but only a hw-emulated 1541 does not help, and this fact makes it even more interesting, well, at least for me!

2021-10-20 18:23

hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4723

Quote: Quoting Joe
Must be some very important collection making so many people discussing it and.. There is no graphician acredited for the original work?
Hope you get the intriguing disc-whatever-emulation/real-stuff working ;D
Laughing my arse off!
While I'm sure the "artist" did hide for a reason (just as Groepaz already assumed), this loader quirk *really* seems to be connected to something not-yet fully understood. Guess the scene has reached a level that makes certain people behave like "Platon handling g64-files for science" - and I do think this is ok :)

Quoting Groepaz
Try using a C64 sometimes :)
Quoting Joe
Try making the emulator 100% :D
Interestingly the loader does not only break the commonly spread sw emulation, but also most of the hw emulation as we have it on 1541ultimate. So using a real c64 but only a hw-emulated 1541 does not help, and this fact makes it even more interesting, well, at least for me!

Yes. And this find is interesting because of that, not the babes per se. I am sure most old farts here are more turned on by driver emulation Matrix code than 80s babes, Algorithm excluded.

2021-10-25 17:30

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357

PiCiJi did some more testing, and it seems to work with 1570, but not 1571 (hu?). It also seems to work with the 1541C ROM and the Jiffydos ROM in the drive.

It'd be interesting to know what ROM is in the drives of the ppl that tested it here :)

If you dont have a dos wedge kernal or AR or similar to check the powerup message, use

0 open1,8,15:inputa,b$,c,d:?a,b$,c,d:close1

2021-10-25 17:52

hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4723

Quote: PiCiJi did some more testing, and it seems to work with 1570, but not 1571 (hu?). It also seems to work with the 1541C ROM and the Jiffydos ROM in the drive.

It'd be interesting to know what ROM is in the drives of the ppl that tested it here :)

If you dont have a dos wedge kernal or AR or similar to check the powerup message, use

0 open1,8,15:inputa,b$,c,d:?a,b$,c,d:close1

Will check. Will try some other drives as well while at it.

2021-10-25 18:03

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969

Quoting Groepaz

and it seems to work with 1570, but not 1571 (hu?)

Could reproduce this with VICE, but this seems to be the same stepping speed difference that makes it work with AR6.

1570:
.8:f279  A9 20       LDA #$20
.8:f27b  8D 07 1C    STA $1C07
.8:f27e  8D 05 1C    STA $1C05

1571:
.8:f279  A9 3A       LDA #$3A
.8:f27b  8D 07 1C    STA $1C07
.8:f27e  8D 05 1C    STA $1C05

2021-10-25 19:38

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357

ha!

2021-11-01 23:44

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969

Got around to test it on original hardware myself, and the results are consistent with VICE.

Works reliably on drives with a stepping speed of $20, never works with $3a, works on all of them if stepping speed is set to $20 when loading from Action Replay fastload.

The drives that didn't work (stepping speed $3a) were a 1541 and three 1541-II, the drives that worked (stepping speed $20) were a 1541-C, a 1570, and, interestingly, a 1571.

So it seems that there are different 1571 ROM revisions with either of the two stepping speeds, as with 1541-C. Maybe that's also the case for 1541-II?

Now, for those drives that worked (especially 1541-II) from plain BASIC for Groepaz, hedning, Shocker and everybody else, what does $1c07 read after power-up, and what's at $f27a? =)

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