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Sequencer
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 13 |
What editors are PPL using now?
Hey. So I haven't coded a chiptune properly for C-64 since the mid 90s (I've used a hardsid in midi, a sidstation, and (gasp) quadrasid emulation but all mainly in recorded work). But now I am thinking it would be fun to make some new tracks, and some old friends are starting to ask me for them...
So, the last time I really did anything it was in JCH Editor (v17-19 range, I think... it is all foggy now). I'm curious to hear what people are using now and what enhancements have been made. I'm sorry if this is a redundant topic somewhere else --
I've dabbled with GoatTracker. Found it a bit off. But one thing I did like, that wasn't present in JCH editor was the sort of ability to vastly modify the instrument within the pattern data. For example, changing filter mode/cutoff/resonance within the voices vs. having to make one or several sweeping instrument definitions.
I had messed a little bit with multi-speed editing (x3), which at the time was a pain.
I'm also pretty interested in some of what has happened with C-64 + sample playback. I saw an impressive demo of something like a MOD or XM playing on C64, and then being post processed through the filter.
Anyway, curious to hear what people are using and why. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 462 |
that would take out all the joy; also, that would prevent us from finding our own styles, based on how we feed the editor of choice with numbers |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Nothing will prevent you from making your own style, thats plain nonsense.
You do what you do, because you like what you make.
The things you dont like, you dont use. |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Well, in that case, I don't always like shit :-) |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
Quote: What could be better ?
1) volume, filter, pulse envelopes - drawn with mouse (line, point based), with option to preview result, by playing a sequence looped.
2) arpeggio editor like synths have, or some like to call it a note pattern. raise and lower bars intuitively to make C-D-F-F# pattern to use, then execute this pattern anywhere inside a sequence.
3) synthesizer: sound engine that generates different kind of sounds, based on your choices, cursor/mouse controlled.
well those were the main 3 things i had in mind.
also... sid speech synth ?
Hey,
1) I don't quite get it. Putting in a couple of hex values is *much* faster and more exact than drawing stuff with a mouse.
2) Wavetables and patterns provide that kind of functionality already.
3) You are free to generate any kind of sounds the sid is capable of with existing editors. How should a "sound engine" like that work? "Hey, I want an accordeon like sound, so let's put OSC XY on voice one and OSC ZZ with detune amount F on voice two!" or something? The fun (for me anyway) is to do everything from scratch. I wouldn't bother touching a "sound engine" like that. Again, I am glad I don't have to use a mouse at all.
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
3) That's exactly where the fun is, Linus.
Some sort of generator for this would simply suck big time and also reveal 100% lamenes from the one using it :-)
The sid is fairly simple. either do some experiments or simply use a few braincells to figure it out. :-)
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VIC
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 73 |
Quote: Well, in that case, I don't always like shit :-)
But sometimes you use it? |
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Sequencer
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 13 |
Quote: It's sad that many people have gone handicapped concerning creation of c64 music. Nothing seems to be good enough for them to work with. And OFCOURSE that can be used as an excuse for not being able to do decent music ;-P
There are already lots of good players and editors around.
Etc. re 'the tools are good enough'. Sure they are, but it always nice to progress and push both the limitations of hard/software and of the usability of editing environments.
This doesn't preclude doing good work and there are plenty of good tools out there... and creative/technical limitations are always part of the game.
I've always seen it as an organic part of working in this sort of medium. You exploit it for a while until you reach an artificial limitation, one that is usually imposed by a lack of tools or insight, then you invent a way around that limitation. Its not to say somebody couldn't struggle through making very nice music in the old Basic SID Editor if they wanted to...
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Sequencer
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 13 |
Quote: as someone who works with both, renoise and goattracker, what exactly would you want to achieve if you would and could combine both?
even though i'd like some reverb and spazzy delay in my .sid, i'm sure that both my c64s would disagree in the end.
Nothing sonically. With THCs sample routine you can mix multiple sample voices with SID specifically from GoatTracker. So it was just a suggestion as to how one may sequence the sample voices (which end up needing to be MOD format pattern data) and SID voices, retain the SID voice programming (not to have to recreate it, since in most cases this part would be more complex vs. sample voice programming), and to be able to do so in a working environment that will sound close to the end result (synchronized playback).
It has/had nothing to do with using effects on top of sid or other renoise bells and whistles. |
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Sequencer
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 13 |
Quote: Rambones: *What* could be better? What kind of missing features are we talking about that stop us from composing good sid music? I pitty anybody who feels masochistic about creating music in a decent c64 editor because I for one genuinely fucking enjoy it.
There aren't really missing features. There are a lot of great tools to compose SID music.
But there are always useful enhancements...
I had to compose some very limited music for Gameboy Advance using MuSyx -- using the built in gameboy PSG voices and 2 lofi sample channels. The editing environment was pretty tedious, but it did have one interesting feature which was that the instruments were in macros (like c-64 wavetables) but those macros also had some operations which were logical (random branches, conditional branches, etc.). So if you wanted to do random or somewhat complex instrument modulation you could do so very simply vs. hand-coded variations. You could do interesting things with this like for example changing the filter or PWM tracking depending on octave or current beat. So stuff like this could be interesting in place in a SID editor, not that anybody 'needs' it or everybody would utilize it (or that it wouldn't take too much work to make a replayer pack and handle it efficiently).
Also I've always found the absolute reliance on a wavetable for chord data to place an annoying but constantly repeated limitation on workflow. It should be possible to make a 'chord template' in a wavetable whereby the actual chord values (the transposition offsets) would be defined in the pattern (the music) and not pre-baked into a wavetable. This way your wavetable only needs to define 'how' an arpeggio works (which waveforms at which steps and for how long, and how to repeat this, and at what speed) and your music pattern data dictates the actual chords. You don't find yourself with huge wavetables full of major and minor and suspended chords in different inversions, and you don't have to jump into a wavetable editor every time you want to lay down a new chord or adjust your composition a bit. You'd be freer to lay down chords then go back and tweak how they all sound globally, etc. For example play a sidstation or quadrasid...
So, casting aside any simpler editor things like a visual gui (prophet64) there is plenty of room for tweaks that could make composition more fluid (for some).
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:I had to compose some very limited music for Gameboy Advance using MuSyx
my condolences has to go to everyone who came even close to MuSux =P |
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