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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Limitations - Sprites in the Borders
hello,
I was thinking, has anyone drawn up a doc with (pictures :)explaining *all known* possibilities with placing sprites into the border areas of the screen.
I know:
8 sprites can be placed in the upper and lower borders.
7 sprites can be placed in the side borders.
I was thinking, what about the corner borders,is that classed as a sideborder or a top or bottom border (8 sprites).
Another question :) when 7 sprites are placed into the sideborders can the 8th free sprite be placed into the main (center) screen areas or by opening up the side borders, is the option for an 8th sprite not available.
I am asking these questions as i am thinking about designs that use the border areas :)
thanks
/wec
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1995 |
Also, if you wanna use sprites in the sideborder together with badlines (i.e. char data or bitmap data) you're limited to only 4 sprites per raster line iirc. At least not as high as 7.
Bad line = 40c
Sprite setup = 1-3c
Cycles per sprite = 2c
Cycles per line = 63c
Minimum cycles requires for removing the sideborder = 8c (higly theoretical)
63-40-1-8 = 14c
14/2 = 7 sprites, but this assumes 1 cycle sprite setup time and 8 cycles for removing the sideborder, I'm sceptical... F.e. to make use of the 2 cycles in the sprite setup time you need to use a RMW-instruction to remove the border which will in practice make the border removal 10cycles, i.e. nothing gained.
Anyways, my VIC-schooling has taught me that 4 sprites in the sideborder + normal badlines is the max you can get. I'd like to hear a nice theoretical explanation for this though...
7 sprites + sideborder and char graphics is possible only if you dis-allow new badlines to form. The $d011 trick required to do this unfortunatly collides with sprite fetch 0, hence only sprites 1-7 are usable (I use this trick in Panta Rhei and LCP Memories f.e.). But not allowing badlines to form, limits the graphics possibilities quite alot, although having a WEC logo which is rather simple is not a problem at all, if you have that in mind.
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1732 |
Quote: The intro picture of Deus Ex Machina is very well thought out.
.at the moment Tlr i'm just looking into design ideas :)
Actually that was Jetboy's post, but I can help out too if you like. :)
Breakpoint 06 c64 Graphics Seminar does some explanation on how the Deus Ex Machina picture was created (in Photoshop), and much more.
Basically you can have 7 (usually just 4) sprites per line in the "screen" part of the y-coordinates, and 8 in the rest.
There are many restrictions based on this. I haven't seen anybody manage FLI every line with 7 sprites in the border for example.
If you stay on the standard VIC-II modes (MultiColor/Hires) + sideborder you'll be safe. Otherwise I suggest you present an idea, and then someone codes a viewer to test if it is possible to display it before you draw it.
Oswalds comment about the X-coordinates is just that coordinate 0 is not the leftmost location.
Also what usually limits you from displaying many sprites in the "screen" area is that every 8th line is a "badline", i.e less raster time to open the border.
There are ways to manipulate these badlines (e.g FLI which adds them).
You could for example work with the restriction that some parts of the screen have more sprites, but doesn't open the border in some of the raster lines. Note that when not opening the border in a line, the border color will show one raster line lower on the left side than on the right side.
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
I have to agree with JackAsser, under normal circumstances you won't get more than 4 sprites in the sideborders.
Quote:I haven't seen anybody manage FLI every line with 7 sprites in the border for example.
And I haven't seen anybody managing FLI every line with even 1 sprite in the border. |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1732 |
Quote: I have to agree with JackAsser, under normal circumstances you won't get more than 4 sprites in the sideborders.
Quote:I haven't seen anybody manage FLI every line with 7 sprites in the border for example.
And I haven't seen anybody managing FLI every line with even 1 sprite in the border.
@Graham: I stand corrected.
I must admit I stopped coding demos for the c64 in 1988, although I followed the developments since then. ;)
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Quote: Actually that was Jetboy's post, but I can help out too if you like. :)
Breakpoint 06 c64 Graphics Seminar does some explanation on how the Deus Ex Machina picture was created (in Photoshop), and much more.
Basically you can have 7 (usually just 4) sprites per line in the "screen" part of the y-coordinates, and 8 in the rest.
There are many restrictions based on this. I haven't seen anybody manage FLI every line with 7 sprites in the border for example.
If you stay on the standard VIC-II modes (MultiColor/Hires) + sideborder you'll be safe. Otherwise I suggest you present an idea, and then someone codes a viewer to test if it is possible to display it before you draw it.
Oswalds comment about the X-coordinates is just that coordinate 0 is not the leftmost location.
Also what usually limits you from displaying many sprites in the "screen" area is that every 8th line is a "badline", i.e less raster time to open the border.
There are ways to manipulate these badlines (e.g FLI which adds them).
You could for example work with the restriction that some parts of the screen have more sprites, but doesn't open the border in some of the raster lines. Note that when not opening the border in a line, the border color will show one raster line lower on the left side than on the right side.
thanks, although there is nothing to help out with at the moment. I have simply been thinking about possibilities and clever design :)
So 4 sprites is the way to go. 4 sprites for the side borders and the other 4 sprites can be used on the (main) screen (or should that be 3 (7 total)).
..and what about hires, multi colour, expanded sprites. Can this affect the timing? or is a sprite a sprite :)
Crossbow spoke of displaying a sprite, but not a whole sprite (during Krestage or Krestage 2). I'll have to see the demo again, i think he speaks of displaying only the first 16 or 18 pixels of the sprite.
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1732 |
Quote:So 4 sprites is the way to go. 4 sprites for the side borders and the other 4 sprites can be used on the (main) screen (or should that be 3 (7 total)).
Only 4 sprites in total on a given raster line with the normal screen open. That is 4 sprites that can be either in the border or in the middle of the screen.
Typical example of the simplest form is the first part of Bonanza.
Quote:..and what about hires, multi colour, expanded sprites. Can this affect the timing? or is a sprite a sprite :)
A sprite is a sprite. If a sprite is active on a given line it affects timing.
Quote:Crossbow spoke of displaying a sprite, but not a whole sprite (during Krestage or Krestage 2). I'll have to see the demo again, i think he speaks of displaying only the first 16 or 18 pixels of the sprite.
I don't remember the height, but I don't think you will benefit from this on a static image.
A sprite can change it's x-pos and color on a raster line in the middle of it so you can emulate this anyway.
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
Look for ESCOM-pictures.
Iirc they use all borders with xy-expanded sprites.
Wait I will check.
Airwolf
Nice example.
Most look worse :)
Anyway - there you go. |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1732 |
Quote: Look for ESCOM-pictures.
Iirc they use all borders with xy-expanded sprites.
Wait I will check.
Airwolf
Nice example.
Most look worse :)
Anyway - there you go.
ESCOS. Expanded Screen COnstruction Set |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1995 |
Phat moving ESCOS by HCL in Totally Stoned 2 ... FYI. |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Quote: Quote:So 4 sprites is the way to go. 4 sprites for the side borders and the other 4 sprites can be used on the (main) screen (or should that be 3 (7 total)).
Only 4 sprites in total on a given raster line with the normal screen open. That is 4 sprites that can be either in the border or in the middle of the screen.
Typical example of the simplest form is the first part of Bonanza.
Quote:..and what about hires, multi colour, expanded sprites. Can this affect the timing? or is a sprite a sprite :)
A sprite is a sprite. If a sprite is active on a given line it affects timing.
Quote:Crossbow spoke of displaying a sprite, but not a whole sprite (during Krestage or Krestage 2). I'll have to see the demo again, i think he speaks of displaying only the first 16 or 18 pixels of the sprite.
I don't remember the height, but I don't think you will benefit from this on a static image.
A sprite can change it's x-pos and color on a raster line in the middle of it so you can emulate this anyway.
The height thing, i thought the benefit could be from the added color made available :)
So how do you explain the note to *Don't Meet Crest*
There appears to be a character logo, rasterbars and 7 sprites. The sprites bunch up and appear to overlap each other and enter into the side borders. Mind you it could be an illusion, as while the 7 sprites appear to be on the same horizontal line, the sprites bunch up as they enter the side border, so maybe only 4 sprites are in the one location.
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