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2003-07-12 11:22

Merman

Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 140

Transparent votes?

There's been a lot of "discussion" in the one-liner box about whether voting should be transparent, i.e. you can see who voted (and their vote's value).

I feel that things should stay as they are, just the number of votes and "weighted" vote shown for each entry. That would save all the arguments "why did you vote low for me?" or "he/she is a lamer, they voted low for me/my release"

What do others think?

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2004-02-24 16:17

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048

Quote: why not just calculate the average from the transparent votes only? everybody can give their vote, whether they want them public or not, but they just won't count in the average...

I was suggesting this solution too. Simply to disable non-transparent votes on default, and have possibility to enable them if anyone is interested.

I've got that *cheschire cat smile* on my face again.. I mean, yeah, it's not a very nice solution towards anonyms, but I don't see any reason in having any special affection or tolerance towards such type of voters.

2004-02-24 17:24

Board Rider

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 15

I think it would be good to see who voted for what and how the feel about the release too...

Board Rider/CSD!

2004-02-24 19:06

fade
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290

board rider: thats what comments are for.. :)

How about a good, bad or ugly icon, with text on_mouseover "fade hates this" "fade would let this one tickle his twig and berries" you catch my drift.. Just PLEASE enough whinging about it.. I hate hearing this shit and unfortunately it isnt Big Brother so nobody is getting evicted from the scene

2004-02-24 19:47

_V_
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124

Voting, imho, should be an honest, anonymous process done by many, many people. If there's no honesty, there's no point in interpreting the votes.

2004-02-24 21:02

fade
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290

maybe we can catch some fairies while we wait for any honesty. And maybe find a fakelabel that understands what being a fakelabel is all about. How about everyone fucks off this pointless topic and does some c64 datawork because this is as pointless as a conversation on religion. Someone put their foot down and end it all.. argh! :)

2004-02-24 21:24

_V_
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124

On the way home, I recalled something which might be interesting... if these apparent downvotes are a problem, why not switch to the much stabler median to calculate the central value instead of the mean?

If you have an ***ordered*** sequence of N numbers:

x.1, x.2, x.3, ..., x.N

Then the median is defined as:

x.(N+1)/2 (if N is odd)

(this is, simply, the value of the number in the middle)

or 1/2 * ( x.N/2 + x.N/2+1 ) (if N is even)

(this is the arithmetical mean of the values of the two middle numbers)

The median is statistically more robust than the arithmetical mean, especially when the amount of numbers N is small (which seems to be the case for most prods). It is the number which literally stands in the middle of the other numbers: there are as many numbers on the right as there are on the left.

So for example, let's say we have 10 ordered votes for a prod as follows:

6, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 9, 9, 9, 10

Then the two middle numbers are 7 and 8, and the median is 1/2*(7 + 8) = 7.5

Note that the arithmetical mean is 7.90 in this case.

However, now let's assume some hip kid decides to downvote and adds a 1 to the sequence:

1, 6, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 9, 9, 9, 10

The median now is 7, whereas the arithmetical mean is 7.27. So the median drops 0.5, while the mean drops 0.63, which is a bit more. It gets worse if we add another downvote, let's say a 2:

1, 2, 6, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 9, 9, 9, 10

Now the median is 7, while the arithmetical mean is 6.83. As you can see, the median holds its position for a much longer time than the arithmetical mean.

The disadvantage of the median is that, in the current voting system, it will always have values like 6, 6.5, 7, 7.5 etc... but you can remedy this by coupling it to the arithmetical mean and calculate:

1/2 * (median + arithmetical mean)

That way you can calculate a quantity which is fairly robust against to downvoting (and also upvoting, alas) while still being coupled to the arithmetical mean (and thus produce numbers other than just 7, 7.5, 8 etc).

Just a thought. And if you remarked that you can do a lot of weird things with statistics, you'd be right. You can twist and turn the results of a test any way you want with the right formulas. :)

2004-02-25 08:48

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086

I agree with fade... sit down and make something meaningfull on the commie instead of wasting time on this topic...

I have to laugh on you... it was funny when someone started a topic, that why is his 10years ago died cracking group not on the top10... WHO THE FUCK DOES CARE ? you are just a bunch of grown up crying for your lost childhood... get real. Look at things at their real importance.

2004-02-25 09:54

TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879

Quote: I agree with fade... sit down and make something meaningfull on the commie instead of wasting time on this topic...

I have to laugh on you... it was funny when someone started a topic, that why is his 10years ago died cracking group not on the top10... WHO THE FUCK DOES CARE ? you are just a bunch of grown up crying for your lost childhood... get real. Look at things at their real importance.

Oh sure, and making demos on c64 is of real importance? In case you & Fade don't realize it yet: this is a forum, we're supposed to share our opinions here, and appearantly transparant voting is important enough for a bunch of us to do just that. And if you had paid attention you would understand that it's not about our own groups/releases not being in top 10's, it's about people fucking up the voting-system. If I really cared about being in the top 10 I wouldn't have changed my votes back making Visual Delight 2 fall from it.

I happen to like rankings, I happen to like knowing what other people really think of groups & productions, and I happen to think that if votes are not transparent that that undermines the system. Now I may be wasting my time but that doesn't matter, it is MY time I waste, and not yours, unless you chose to butt in like you do now. So just STFU and go back to coding your demos, mkay?

2004-02-25 11:52

_V_
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124

Fade: Why yes, fairies don't exist and honesty is a concept not grasped by everyone, it seems. Therefore, the numbers on the right cannot be interpreted unless there are many, many votes to make the bias from deliberate downvotes and upvotes insignificant. Since there're not a lot of votes (ie. <50 mostly, even <100 isn't a lot), guess my thoughts on the current standings. And yes, that's a rhetorical statement.

2004-02-25 12:18

Stryyker

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468

Interesting. The Dark Judge wants his opinion voiced. If he highly dislikes someone elses opinion you tells them to go jump.

I do like to know what others think. It isn't too much different to diskmag charts. Only a small number know who voted for what and what they give.

I think too much of an issue is being made of these votes.

How about we pool some money together so everyone registered needs to have a number of lie detector tests? And then it will not be perfect.

Transparent votes reduces the rights of many, believing they have of free speeach. Everyone being able to interrogate votes reduces their freedom. Some don't want to offend people or upset them so they can give them what they honestly think.

This reminds me of the US presidential elections. Nothing will satisfy the public about who wins and flawed voting.

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