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2005-04-12 10:15

Slartibartfast
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230

** Link removed by CSDb staff due to copyright. Please do not provide download links to this **

Well, there has been a few of these notices today, on certain Protovision releases that have been cracked and released by some people on CSDb.

Cracking has always been a large part of the scene, arguably the biggest and also what has ultimately ensured the scene to exist today.

If it weren't for cracking, piracy if you will, many games simply wouldn't be available on the web today. The C64dtv wouldn't have much of a lineup, all the games on it were cracks from the scene.

Now this issue has come to CSDb again, over old releases of Protovision games. Download links removed, to files which are definitely a part of the scene.

I can understand the policy on this, it's a way to protect CSDb against legal action. Other sites, for instance GB64, have tackled this by not hosting the files and just providing links to them.

But CSDb won't allow even that, if someone has an issue with their copyrighted work being available, the links will be removed. Even links provided by the user in their comment to the entry, will be censored and removed.

There is nothing regarding this policy in the CSDb FAQ, yet there is this disclaimer:

"Who's responsible for this?
We cannot take responsibility for the content of this database as all information is submitted by users."

So, that says straight out that CSDb is not responsible for the content.

It can be said that this is a way to protect CSDb in future, but from whom exactly? Can anyone honestly see Chronosoft or Protovision sueing anyone? Or if this is a measure to protect CSDb, could it go further and remove all cracks from the site?

On the other hand, CSDb are just trying to protect themselves, from Protovision apparently. Should we take the old debate over piracy directly to Protovision? As sceners themselves, they should know better than to be taking on this issue against sceners. Don't we all know by now that the people who would download these cracks, are not the same people that would buy it? That some of the people that get the game for free may even consider buying it at a later point?

One of the Protovision founders was a cracker himself, other members have been crackers, swappers or undoubtedly recipients of pirated software themselves.

This seemed to start with Macgyver altering a release of a PTV game here yesterday. A member of Protovision and also a CSDb admin. He was a swapper in the past.

Is this censorship really necessary? Do Protovision really think they would lose sales of these games, does CSDb really think there is any threat of legalities from an admin of this site?

This is an issue that strikes deep with many in the scene, and this site is an essential part of the scene today.

Surely there must be a better way to deal with this.

So let's discuss it here rather than in comments on these censored releases ;)

... 209 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2005-04-12 22:08

MacGyver
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 149

@ Seven & groepaz: Btw, where's Detonators 2 ?

2005-04-12 22:11

MacGyver
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 149

Quote: Lemme spell it for you:
S - C - E - N - E

Get it now??

All or most members of Protovision members are sceners.

Get it now? ;-)

It seems you, as most people here, went to a frozen sleep in the early ninties and didn't mention a few things changed in the meantime.

2005-04-12 22:15

Tch
Account closed

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512

You are right..

I better get that copyright on:
LDA #$00
STA $D020
STA $D021
Whenever somebody uses this,I will get some money..

Ayeah,the times sure are evolving.. :(

2005-04-12 22:20

Seven

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202

You're just that dumb, aren't you?

I'm done trying to explain it to you, maybe you give Roman's last post some thought, if you're actually capable of such that is. If not, for your own good, try not to post anymore cause it's only getting worse. Have someone with a brain explain it to you first or, even better, have that person post for you.

P.S.: As for Detonators 2, the answer to that was written to this very database 2 years ago, oh my admin.

2005-04-12 22:44

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11365

"@ Seven & groepaz: Btw, where's Detonators 2 ?"

how exactly is that related to you and your abuse of admin rights?

and while we are at asking unrelated stupid questions, whats your latest world first?

2005-04-12 23:13

Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044

CreamD: I'm not questioning his support for the database or anything else.

Back to the point.

Deletion of links and taking over ownership of groups cracks is wrong.

Courtesy would have been for MacGyver to message the groups involved and done it in a respectful way, after all, this is a SCENE database, not a SALES database. MacGyver should show some fucking respect.

MacGyver removed:
Hockey Mania+ Docs, Ice Guys and Bombmania links.

He also removed the Hockey Mania file on ftp://c64.rulez.org
from a private ONSLAUGHT folder that OUR webpage was using for a download link. Fortunately I co-maintain that FTP and restored things.

Rather than him fucking around like a little girl, he should come clean with this shit and keep to the point. Stop changing the point MacGyver, answer these allegations.

Se7en said it best:
"Clearly, we're working with two standards here... games by others are fair game for MacGyver, MacGyver/PTV games are taboo..."

2005-04-12 23:16

Courage

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 16

Hi!

Thanks for all these comments! Before i'll try to explain something please let me say "sorry" for my bad english. Now i feel ashamed of falling asleep during our english lessons in school. ;)

Many years ago i've tried to be a cracker. A bad one...but a cracker. Now, many years later, i'm not very proud of that. But that's a thing of the past...i can't turn back the clock! :( Without crackers the C64 wouldn't be what it is, but in 2005 "cracking" is (in my opinion) senseless. It destroyed more than it helps to keep the scene alive. Bugfixing old games, fix them for IDE64, CMD-Hardware or whatever: That's great! But being proud making a "first release" of a gamepreview!?!?!? I don't know! ;)

And i think there is a difference between a game which is purchasable and a game which is not any longer possible to buy. I think these are two totaly different things! Where is my error in reasoning?

Also we have different opinions about the "scene". I think in 2005 everyone who like his c64 and try to keep it alive is part of the "scene". Maybe I'm wrong: In that case it would be better that every PTV-Release would be deleted from this database.

But remember: The aim of PTV is not to earn money. That's simply impossible! The number of 35 sold "Hockey Mania"'s is not enough to drive Ferrari! ;) When PTV was founded it was the aim trying to keep the scene alive by being the last commercial softwarecompany. We thought it could be encouraging for the scene that there are some ppl who sell hard- and software. Did we failed? I don't think so! Represented at for example many partys and printed magazines I think we are part of the todays scene and keep the c64-spirit (at least a bit) alive.

So i'm not really understand why we will be so much attacked! Someone think it's unbelievable that this fucking PTV sells no tape-version of their games. Someone is pissed off by Hockey Mania. Someone hate our lame Intros and so on...! I'm a bit sad that there are only a few ppl who treat our work with respect. We don't say that we make the ultimate 10 of 10 gamehits. It's nearly impossible to code a game which satisfy EVERYONE! It is so heavy to make criticism in a normal way?

About Mega Starforce Remix: This remix should be a tribute to this great game. Ok, some of these credits are very hapless...but nothing to be exercised so much!

@MacGyver: Sleep one night and than take a stand! But reasonable!! To gripe is actually not the best way to resume this discussion!

@rest: MacGyver has to answer to some of these allegations...but I hope i could clear up all this a little bit. If there are any questions feel free to send me a PM or an email! Again: Maybe the sense of my text could be a little curios...the reason is my crappy english! :)

Bye! Yours Courage

2005-04-12 23:22

Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044

Courage: Thanks for your comments. A lot of us here are hoping that MacGyver can answer some of the allegations presented to him.

I order games from Protovision myself, in fact I have 3 here that are "unreleased". I'm a bit saddened that Protovision don't try to increase their packing quality just a little bit. I mean, its just a disk in a fucking plastic bag, come on! But this is beside the point...

MacGyver: as Courage wisely said, have a good night's sleep and then come back here and answer some simple questions, its not that hard.

2005-04-12 23:34

Courage

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 16

Quote: Courage: Thanks for your comments. A lot of us here are hoping that MacGyver can answer some of the allegations presented to him.

I order games from Protovision myself, in fact I have 3 here that are "unreleased". I'm a bit saddened that Protovision don't try to increase their packing quality just a little bit. I mean, its just a disk in a fucking plastic bag, come on! But this is beside the point...

MacGyver: as Courage wisely said, have a good night's sleep and then come back here and answer some simple questions, its not that hard.

Ok Jazzcat! The packing quality is a point we'll have to discuss in Protovision. But with (as i told) 35 selled units each product it's hard to upgrade the package by holding the price. And with a higher price i'm afraid much more ppl will say that we do all this to make profit! :(

2005-04-12 23:40

Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044

Well, Hockey Mania was expensive for me. I send packages from Australia to Europe. It costs $3au for post and around 10c for a blank disk. Which is around 2 euro. That calculates to about 80% profit from Protovision already?
I'm sorry, but the packaging should be better, the sales would be better, ignore the profit. If profit is needed, another platform is the alternative. As you know, C64 is for fun these days.

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