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2005-04-12 10:15

Slartibartfast
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230

** Link removed by CSDb staff due to copyright. Please do not provide download links to this **

Well, there has been a few of these notices today, on certain Protovision releases that have been cracked and released by some people on CSDb.

Cracking has always been a large part of the scene, arguably the biggest and also what has ultimately ensured the scene to exist today.

If it weren't for cracking, piracy if you will, many games simply wouldn't be available on the web today. The C64dtv wouldn't have much of a lineup, all the games on it were cracks from the scene.

Now this issue has come to CSDb again, over old releases of Protovision games. Download links removed, to files which are definitely a part of the scene.

I can understand the policy on this, it's a way to protect CSDb against legal action. Other sites, for instance GB64, have tackled this by not hosting the files and just providing links to them.

But CSDb won't allow even that, if someone has an issue with their copyrighted work being available, the links will be removed. Even links provided by the user in their comment to the entry, will be censored and removed.

There is nothing regarding this policy in the CSDb FAQ, yet there is this disclaimer:

"Who's responsible for this?
We cannot take responsibility for the content of this database as all information is submitted by users."

So, that says straight out that CSDb is not responsible for the content.

It can be said that this is a way to protect CSDb in future, but from whom exactly? Can anyone honestly see Chronosoft or Protovision sueing anyone? Or if this is a measure to protect CSDb, could it go further and remove all cracks from the site?

On the other hand, CSDb are just trying to protect themselves, from Protovision apparently. Should we take the old debate over piracy directly to Protovision? As sceners themselves, they should know better than to be taking on this issue against sceners. Don't we all know by now that the people who would download these cracks, are not the same people that would buy it? That some of the people that get the game for free may even consider buying it at a later point?

One of the Protovision founders was a cracker himself, other members have been crackers, swappers or undoubtedly recipients of pirated software themselves.

This seemed to start with Macgyver altering a release of a PTV game here yesterday. A member of Protovision and also a CSDb admin. He was a swapper in the past.

Is this censorship really necessary? Do Protovision really think they would lose sales of these games, does CSDb really think there is any threat of legalities from an admin of this site?

This is an issue that strikes deep with many in the scene, and this site is an essential part of the scene today.

Surely there must be a better way to deal with this.

So let's discuss it here rather than in comments on these censored releases ;)

... 209 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2005-04-12 23:40

Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044

Well, Hockey Mania was expensive for me. I send packages from Australia to Europe. It costs $3au for post and around 10c for a blank disk. Which is around 2 euro. That calculates to about 80% profit from Protovision already?
I'm sorry, but the packaging should be better, the sales would be better, ignore the profit. If profit is needed, another platform is the alternative. As you know, C64 is for fun these days.

2005-04-12 23:41

fade
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290

brrraaaaaiiiiiiinnnnnssssss..

2005-04-12 23:42

Slartibartfast
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230

Ok, seeing as this seems to have gone over certain people's heads, I'll restate it. As Twoflower pointed out, releasing commercial games should be about value adding.

It's an old old argument, people that download pirate copies of games are not the ones who are interested in the value of an original. These people are not directly in your market.

A game with nice packaging, something that makes it feel like you are getting value for your money, that will guarantee sales. If you cater for that, even crack releases become free publicity for your game, if it's good enough people from outside your initial market may want the value of the extras you add to your commercial release.

One old example I can think of is Ultima and it's map on a tea towel. I thought that was great at the time.

These days all it would take is some nice packaging...

The Blue Ninja said this:

"But releasing those few games without any (real) added value is no justification in my mind."

I put that straight back to Protovision like Twoflower did, is releasing commercial games in nothing other than a plastic bag adding any value whatsoever? Or with that level on inconsideration to your consumers make them feel that a pirate copy would be enough.

After all, at least a crack comes with a funky intro and a trainer, and possibly even bug fixes.

This should be seen as an opportunity to change the way you are doing business. Surely if Hockey Mania has only sold 35 copies since 2003, cracking is not a serious threat to it's sales. If you think about it clearly, this is another method of distribution that could create even more sales.

With so few sales, and such a small market, and the justification of wanting to make some money from all of your hard work (which is fair enough), wouldn't it be even better to distribute your games as shareware? Donationware? Beerware? Any other method has to be more profitable than making only 35 sales over that time.

But then Courage does point out that Protovision's aim is not to make money. What's the problem with crack releases of their games then?

Is Protovision planning to release Metal Dust on a few disks in a plastic bag? If so, I am sure that would be a great disappointment to many, and will do nothing for potential sales.

Protovision, take a step back, try to see past the good you have done for the community, and see how you might make a win/win situation for the scene with a little maturity and responsibility.

2005-04-13 00:23

MacGyver
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 149

I wonder how some people can come up with this "in nothing other than a plastic bag"-thingie. Even cheap games like Team Patrol and Hockey Mania come with a colored disclabel and a printed manual. Actually, a photo of what you get when buying a game from us can be seen at our online shop.

As for Virtual Ass: It is available for free download. It
is Appreciate Ware, so you are free to pay, but you don't have to.

Protovision is not commercial since we only cover our costs, the rest of the money goes to the creator of the particular product. Anyhow, calling anything "commercial" beeing for the C64 in 2005 is pretty strange.

@ Slarti: As you can see from the Metal Dust section at our homepage, various news items and from the new trailer, Metal Dust will be available with box and colored (!) manual.

Btw, if you consider yourself beeing a really good cracker, go ahead and do a bugfixed version of Turrican 3 - if you can, that is.

2005-04-13 00:30

Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044

MacGyver: once again avoiding the points.

What gives you the right to remove external links to CSDB which point to groups cracks? Haven't you read the CSDB disclaimer?

What gives you the right to abuse your admin power and view who downvoted you?

What gives you the right to have Hockey Mania removed from a private folder on an FTP you have no affiliation with?

2005-04-13 00:37

Slator

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274

@mac:"Btw, if you consider yourself beeing a really good cracker, go ahead and do a bugfixed version of Turrican 3 - if you can, that is."

Guess you are a bit off topic with this. It has nothing to do with cracking in t3. All the bugs in the game are intentionally done by AEG as he believes that this state is all you could get out of your c64.

I dont spend half of my life in recoding this game.

If aeg someday finds the time to fix some bugs then he should do it. and well, you are free to do it yourself, just download the source and off you go.

maybe you can make use of the 4 player adapter or the scpu ;-D

2005-04-13 00:43

fade
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290

I'd rather an encrypted hiscore save file for gianna sisters, to stop people cheating the high scores

2005-04-13 01:40

ThunderBlade

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 77

Well, I haven't read all these postings, so just a few points.

1) 'Respected Sceners' - those who celebrated themselves back then in magazine charts made by themselves, are now creating those CSDb group/scener entries with the same empty words like 'elite' etc., without ever having done anything for the C64 scene at all. Cracking unprotected games is ridiculous. Period.

2) Dividing C64 fans into 'scene' and 'non-scene' is nonsense today. Everyone still owning and using a real C64 today belongs to the C64 scene more or less.

3) Calling Protovision a 'commercial' group is ignorant. Commercial would mean trying to make profit. PTV isn't trying to achieve that.

4) Keeping up 'traditions' that don't make sense any more is mentally retarded.

5) Downvoting people who are doing a good job at what they do, but have a different opinion compared to you, is not only extremely lame. It's like not buying from someone because he is a jew.

6) Cracking on the C64 in 1982-1991 was heroic. Cracking on the C64 in 1992-2001 was ridiculous. Cracking on the C64 TODAY is, well. Guess what.

And finally - look at all those people here who are against MacGyver and what he does, or Protovision and what they do. What do those people who are so upset here all have in common? They are afraid. They are so terribly afraid that the only thing they can be proud of in their lives - their 'cracking' activity - is taken away from them. Is put to a place where they can't be proud of it anymore. Which could turn the so called 'respected scener' to a 'despised person'. So, this tells it all. Their self confidence is suffering so heavily, that they shoot all they have against this kind of attack. I know what I am talking about, this happened in a similar way 10 years ago.

Nothing has changed - at least for them. Back then they were great, or thought that they were great - and they still WANT to be great, now they clutch at straws, desperately. Traditions, facts from the past but not from the present, faking history. Why we don't read comments from real crackers here? Because the real crackers long time ago stopped cracking and started making copy protections, or founded their own software companies, or whatever. They don't care about this ridiculous discussion. They have found new things to be proud of. They don't have to steal other people's work any more to look cool.

So folks, get a life.

2005-04-13 03:10

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11364

"3) Calling Protovision a 'commercial' group is ignorant. Commercial would mean trying to make profit. PTV isn't trying to achieve that."

then who except a commercial company would even remotely care about their stuff beeing downloadable (or not) via csdb?

"5) Downvoting people who are doing a good job at what they do, but have a different opinion compared to you, is not only extremely lame. It's like not buying from someone because he is a jew."

and ppl backstabbing on others because they voted them down is what? SS STYLE i say

"Why we don't read comments from real crackers here? Because the real crackers long time ago stopped cracking and started making copy protections, or founded their own software companies, or whatever. They don't care about this ridiculous discussion. They have found new things to be proud of. They don't have to steal other people's work any more to look cool."

you have zero insight into todays cracking scene do you? the so called "real" crackers are no more active on the c64 (i have to agree cracking c64 stuff in 2005 is ridiculous) - but they are still cracking. (also look up the term "stealing" and how it doesnt apply to cracking at all)

oh well, we still don't know why all that justifies the abuse of admin rights.

2005-04-13 03:13

Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044

ThunderBlade: I have a feeling you will regret saying some of those words. You comment about something you know nothing about.

People release games today because they enjoy doing it or they do it for nostalgic reasons. People code games today because they enjoy doing it or for nostalgic reasons. People create demos today because they enjoy doing it or for nostalgic reasons. Saying that cracking on the C64 is crap in 2005 is just bullshit!!! We release games. Is it the crackers fault that Protovision are too lame to put some serious protection on their games? Give us a challenge with some of your titles!!! (Instead of having MacGyver challenge us to fix the bugs of an source-available-to-public-Turrican 3, which is the game coders duty!). Defining what crackers do is another matter and has nothing with this forum thread. This database holds C64 Scene products, which include cracks, these should be respected equally as any other "scene" release. They haven't been respected and thats the whole point of this thread.

Keep to the point ThunderBlade!! Why do the rules get bent for Protovision?

Why has MacGyver accessed a private folder on an FTP site he had no affiliation with?

Regarding Downvoting. What gives MacGyver the right to view who does this when no one else does?

"Stealing other people's work to look cool" - You really have got it all wrong haven't you?! As a cracker you keep a specific philosophy the whole of your life. I suggest you have a bit of a read on http://home.c2i.net/nirgendwo/cdne/

"Cracking on the C64 in 1992-2001 was ridiculous." How so? When Onslaught NTSC fixed IT'S MAGIC (C) PROTOVISION and gave you guys the original (fixed) so you could distribute in the USA, you weren't finding that so "ridiculous" now were you?!

Try keep to the point ThunderBlade, MacGyver has to justify his actions and so far he has been a COWARD!

Copyright finns inte!

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