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ZIG
Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 37 |
Coding Habits
Ok, so this is a super random question, but I would like to know how the 'high performance' demo coders approach coding nowadays - from a time management perspective.
What I am asking is, how do you balance work and democoding?
How much time would you spend coding in a week? Do you spend big chunks of time or just an hour here and there?
How effective would you be in a sitting? Like, how long does it take you to get into your code and what kind of results would you regularly get?
Finally, how much time would you spend 'experimenting' - say fooling around with an effect you are thinking doing one day of vs production of finished demos/intro etc in a given week/month etc?
Sorry to ask such weird questions, but I feel a bit stuck in making progress on coding right now with so many commitments and I just want to see if there are different ways, or maybe I am just sloooow. Good old ADHD at work. :(
Anyways, thx!
Zig/ |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 569 |
If you’re “in the zone”, code. If not, relax. That works for me.
Sometimes - usually - I’ll just do little bits of work, eg. An hour per day… other times I might be there for 8-10 hours. But… only when I’m enjoying it.
Also.. some effects I work on can take a day.. others could be a month or three.
Most of what I make ends up used .. but I have shelved a few things that haven’t quite worked out … I’m terrible at walking away from code, though, I’ll usually just rethink things into something that works… |
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Angel of Death
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 210 |
I am probably not what you would call a 'high performance' coder but I still make stuff. A man's gotta have a hobby, right?
But I found out that without some goals or final result you wish to achieve it is quite hard to finish something.
Think up a project, chop it into smaller chunks and be sure that when you sit down you only work on one piece. And it is true that you have to kinda figure out how large/small these chunks need to be.
I, myself, am lucky in having not much responsibilities apart from keeping safe, fed and comfortable so I can work on something up to four hours a day.
Maybe it doesn't sound very adventurous or 'ADHD' but you have to approach it like any other project that needs focus and structure.
Just find a place without too many distractions and sit down and work. After a few times you're brain will adapt and know when to go to work.
And I'm sure that your family, if you have one, can leave you alone for a few hours a week.
But believe me, once you finished something and it looks good, your brain will reward you doubly for it and want more.
Happy coding! :) |
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Case
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 138 |
I also fall into the "far from high performance coder" but i agree with raistlin. I can code for a few hours, working on one specific thing until its right or atleast working, other times if i'm not "feeling it" i will stop after a few minutes.
If you not enjoying it / making small steps then walk away and come back again. All of us are now of an age where we have a job, familly life and commitments of some sort so our retro hobby is something that we do when time permits and such we should enjoy it. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11127 |
I have a hard time hopping between projects all the time, so usually when i actually found some interesting to code on i spend every minute i can on it. Followed by long breaks :) Some of the most complex things i did on C64 emerged quickly over a couple days or just a weekend. Some other stuff (like the growing flowers in Artphosis) took months to get right.
The most important thing IMHO for getting stuff done is breaking it up into small tasks early - at least it helps me a lot to not get overwhelmed by stuff that seems super complex as a whole. |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 702 |
During work hours, when there are idle times, I tend to "sneak code". usually pseudocode and some relaxing manual tests to get the time ticking in notepad/excel or so
If there is even more sufficient idle time in work, i start coding (pc code or c64) without the ability to run or test the code (thats for later when indoors) - I look through the code manually to try and ensure no bugs etc.
Plus point of this method is that the idle gaps are filled in with coding/design sessions, leaving more time free for later after work
Usually (well, always) the code is finished in a working state on the same day in the evening and then its rinse/repeat for the other days
As for experimenting. Yes, a lot of stuff done but not released, usually later refined or re-coded. Some make it as a demo part for linking, some are still in the pending folders... |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
@algorithm: Outdoor coding? |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2076 |
When I was still commuting via train big deal, those 2 times 20 minutes on my notebook each day have been the most productive time for cracking (rather training and modding), sometimes also for intro or demo part coding. Sometimes(!) when I'm sick and can't sleep, between all that coughing I'm also surprisingly productive.
On the other hand, when you're into some kind of flow _and_ have got the time (don't report sick or quit your real life job or leave your family just to win a T Shirt at an 8 bit party), hang on. And when you're uninspired or unmotivated, let it be, for it's unlikely you'll really be productive. A good balance of beer and coffee is recommendable. Otherwise, you'll night by night end drunk having coded next to nothing.
Problematic is hitting deadlines when you're a one man army and haven't really got an idea or just ain't motivated at all. Helpful is when you team up with someone willing to crack a whip on all them lazy minions that supposed to be working on a bigger production. Unfortunately most ppl messing around with 30-sth yo systems, are minimum chaotic or even anarchist. Easier to herd cats than to command a bunch of these 8 bit dudes. |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 702 |
Quote: @algorithm: Outdoor coding?
No, meant coding in work (inside), and when i mentioned "indoors" i meant home :-) |
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Monte Carlos
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 351 |
All my latest release were done in public transport. At home: No 5 minutes. |
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Magnar
Registered: Aug 2009
Posts: 60 |
Hi all,
I am no real coder :) But, I try sometimes. And I guess, I can relate to the topic even as a musician.
I am most productive on late evenings or after midnight until 4-5am. This time of the day there is absolutely no pressure from anyone else, and I can sit and focus on what ever I want to do; Code, compose or draw a picture. Undisturbed. These hours also are the most silence period of the day in terms of noise from outside as well. It is perfect time for when I get very creative.
Sometimes, when deadlines requires, I go all in; I can spend easily nights and days for a couple of weeks time in order to get the production ready. This often clashes with work hours, but I tend to flex-out and flex-in on that so that my work is not affected during that hectic period of time when the demo making is "more important" because I don't want us to miss a release. I often help out with "what needs to be done". If it is music or sfx, I do that. If it is a picture or a font, I do that. If it is a demopart, I code it etc. All in for reaching the deadline, as per that moment often the whole team been griding and are rather pushed to the limit in terms of get it ready. And I somehow have a lot of energy to get things finished at that stage.
However, between releases, I am often very unproductive. I seldom prepare anything for the next gig. I am the typical guy that works when work is needed. :) So, I spend very little time experimenting. However, I can spend very much time to improve my tools and frameworks. Improving batch files for building stuff or try out new tools etc etc.
In a sitting, like during a evening I am either very productive on graphic and music or things turns to shit and I just have to quit and watch Netflix etc instead.
My code is unfortunately always full of bugs and shit, so when I code stuff I usually spend 6 hours a day finding the bugs and some more time on reaching the result I want. It usually requires many sittings, not just that one evening. When I compose MP3 songs for stuff it also takes more time than an evening because it is so much automation and programming work with the virtual effects and instruments to make it sound proper. And some pictures I draw also takes more time. I can sit with Procreate and draw with a Ipad and pen, or I can sit infront of the PC and do Photoshop stuff or more native graphic editor stuff for hours. It is very relaxing. SID songs usually is pushed out during a evening or two max. SID stuff I often manage to do very fast because I tend to use "my normal go-to type of instruments" and I make instruments very quick and then can focus on melodies and song structure much faster than in a DAW where I can search for the perfect snare sound among millions of samples for...hours. :)
So, that's me in nutshell.
Cheers Magnar |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
Yeah, nights are special. Code the night away... |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5022 |
"How much time would you spend coding in a week? Do you spend big chunks of time or just an hour here and there?"
I have active and inactive periods, when active I spend most of my free time on coding lets say daily about 3 hours atleast. If I dont have a bigger chunk of time I dont even start, I need to get into the flow and when I'm in it I hate to stop early I'm excited to see the results. Knowing I must finish at some defined time gets me out of the flow it puts up the pressure. I'm like Magnar, I need absolute peace and no pressure from anything.
"How effective would you be in a sitting? Like, how long does it take you to get into your code and what kind of results would you regularly get?"
if the idea is fleshed out I usually get an effect working in a few sittings. Depends on the complexity too ofc, for simple effects fex I already have coded it 2-3 sitting is enough. Complex things need many many sittings, fex an effect I'm yet learning how to code. Usually I sit down coding after planning out how the effect will work, speedcode kernel, memory usage, algorithm, etc. This planning phase doesnt need as much concentration than the coding itself, I do it at work in short free time periods, thinking while waiting for the tram, etc.
"Finally, how much time would you spend 'experimenting' - say fooling around with an effect you are thinking doing one day of vs production of finished demos/intro etc in a given week/month etc?"
A LOT. I try out dozens of palettes, movements, etc. But before that I always go for maximiting the code performance and to find ways to do things with the effect that wasnt the goal originally. Often happens, that an fx deemed not good enough gets a new life this way. |
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Trap
Registered: Jul 2010
Posts: 222 |
When making Barry Boomer I was coding every evening after dinner for 6 weeks. I had a few days off, but generally it was 4-7 hours of coding for around 35 days in one strike.
Every day I'd sit down and decide on a feature to work on and almost every day I'd share the updates with Sarge and Jammer so they could follow progress.
As for the Bonzai demos and the big effects, sometimes a part can take months to complete. The tunnel in Bromance took about 4 months to complete. The Shaggy Stallions took almost a year back and forth. If I feel I get stuck with a problem, I put it aside for some time. I know that eventually I will come up with a solution or an alternative idea.
Generally speaking, I have periods with almost daily activity. I try not to leave complex code too long, otherwise it somehow turns into a foreign language and I have no idea what I was doing.
As for experimenting, I have a lot of unfinished code. I work intensely on it for a few evenings up to a point where I decide if it works or not. Then leave it until I have a vision of how exactly I want it to look, planning transitions and all. Then when we go into crunch time, which is around 1-2 month before release, I start finishing up all the bits and pieces. |
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ZIG
Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 37 |
How do you manage to find the time (and energy) after kids and work? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11127 |
Meth |
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Danzig
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 429 |
Quote: Meth
generalized answer from groepaz here! whatever fits best for you to intoxicate urself: crystal meth or methanol... ;-) |
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Trap
Registered: Jul 2010
Posts: 222 |
Quote: How do you manage to find the time (and energy) after kids and work?
It comes in bursts, but adding to the story - I haven't done any code since Bromance and Barry Boomer was released. Complete burnout :D |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11127 |
adding to Danzigs solution: LSD does NOT work. Trust me. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5022 |
Quote: How do you manage to find the time (and energy) after kids and work?
I dont. my daughter is 9 and seems to be on her peak needing me, I have 2-3 hours for myself daily at the end of the days which I rather spend with brainless www and YT or a series than coding. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11127 |
9 is a good age to start with 6502 :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5022 |
I dont know I heard guys saying they were doing asm around 10, but I remember struggling to gasp even the concepts of basic. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11127 |
It all depends on the teacher! |
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Trap
Registered: Jul 2010
Posts: 222 |
Back in the day I think most of us only had ourselves as teachers ... rich kids had a programmer's guide :D |
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ZIG
Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 37 |
In 1987 I got a programmers reference guide for $30 and it was the key to understand for sure. In Australia there were only a few dudes coding and I was lucky to find a couple guys that would explain basics to me so I could get started using assembler instead of monitor... But I only ever had one machine for years.
I think today it's harder to get into computers than back then because there is so much choice to not code - and they don't let you easily get under the lipstick UI. I think the best thing a teacher can do now is seed some ideas and give them tools. My son was curious about the c64 and we would watch demos together as a child and he started coding for gameboy. Now he is 19 and doing computer science at uni - but I feel like I failed him a little as he didn't get as much experience actually coding.
It's hard doing code review on kids assignment without just wanting to do it! |
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ZIG
Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 37 |
Quoting Traptotal burnout.
Also this explains a lot. I basically (stupidly) did this for work instead of demos... |
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awsm
Registered: Feb 2015
Posts: 13 |
Very interesting thread, thank you for asking these questions.
Being married with children plus a demanding day job I rarely have enough energy in the evening and it surely doesn't help that both my wife and my son love watching movies. I feel I waste a lot of my potential and creativity by just sitting on the couch and watching youtube on my phone while the rest of the family watches some US comedy series I find utterly boring.
I have to motivate myself to sit in front of the computer after a long day in front of the very same computer. Deadlines actually help me a lot, I seem to need some pressure.
I have to agree with what Angel of Death said and add that once you're into it and released something you enjoy yourself, it is greatly rewarding and emotionally satisfying. I generate much more energy out of a good result than the amount I had to invest. |
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Bitbreaker
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 500 |
I was coding a lot at work in the past, around 90% of the past demos and stuff were done there. Meanwhile i also did some coding while being on the train or in homeoffice. I tend to code in huge blocks, it is hard to stop if my brain is full of ideas to try out and i hate it, when getting disturbed and all the focus on coding is lost. It helps to write down future work and ideas to stop for now, but stll more ideas can pop up later and i need to note them down then.
I love to experiment, but also need to be convinced of an idea to start coding. There's ideas i never started, and i recognise that ideas get more and more scarce over the time. I definitely work in creative bursts, i then put in all time available, followed by outdoor-activities or time for children.
Sometimes coding is like a drug and i can't stop when i am in a flow. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1989 |
Quote: I was coding a lot at work in the past, around 90% of the past demos and stuff were done there. Meanwhile i also did some coding while being on the train or in homeoffice. I tend to code in huge blocks, it is hard to stop if my brain is full of ideas to try out and i hate it, when getting disturbed and all the focus on coding is lost. It helps to write down future work and ideas to stop for now, but stll more ideas can pop up later and i need to note them down then.
I love to experiment, but also need to be convinced of an idea to start coding. There's ideas i never started, and i recognise that ideas get more and more scarce over the time. I definitely work in creative bursts, i then put in all time available, followed by outdoor-activities or time for children.
Sometimes coding is like a drug and i can't stop when i am in a flow.
Exactly the same here |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
I'm nolife and I create stuff compulsively. That's definitely a bad habit :D |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 422 |
I am always impressed and envious of the productivity of other demo coders. I am extremely slow and spend a lot of time thinking stuff before doing anything. Also, I have trouble finalizing parts/music etc. One day I may create a proof of concept or a partial piece of music, the next day I start another one, or a new version of the previous one. Very few things I do ever become complete and published. My PC is full of unfinished c-64 demo parts, other projects and musical compositions. Perhaps the end product is not that important to me once I've proven myself that something can/can't be done, or that I've got the idea down. It also causes stress. I've got a too much of unfinished business, though it does not really matter to anyone else. F.ex I've worked on the parts of Void Mind for way too long, and every part is now at least 5th version of the original effect, and all I really need to do to finish it is to change the loader and compose the soundtrack. It'll be ready by 2050. In contrast to that, I also program professionally, but I've got no problem getting things off my hands in that context. |
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Pex Mahoney Tufvesson
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 50 |
I do loads of thinking when not sitting in front of any computer. Counting clock cycles and optimizing code "in my head". Which means, at the moment I get to the computer for demo coding, I spend most time writing that code that I already know how it looks. People wonder why I go silent and blank sometimes... ;) I spend very short intervals with coding, sometimes as short fragments as 5-15 minutes, so a text file with every detail written down for bigger projects is a must. So, a short coding session looks like: Reading my notes if I don't know "what's next", start coding/composing/whatever - and if I get new ideas, jot them down into my text logfile. In this text file, the letter § is magic - that's where I am. Everything above that char is "done", everything below that char is "todo". This structure I use in all projects I've done the last 30 years. Without knowing it, there's a similar structure called "orgmode", go find it on internet if you want to know more.
I have no c64-routines "in stock". I kind of only write stuff that I has a dedicated party/purpose. Well, apart from that X'20 greetingspart for the next Performers-demo, but that's still in the pipeline.
I try to complete a demo in as short time as possible. I don't have the stamina of Trap/Bob/lft/Raistlin/HCL or the "coding at work"-possibility as Bitbreaker/THCM/JackAsser. And I don't commute. There is no 100-hour-demo in my life. Storebror was done in approximately 40 hours.
Nowadays there is no "night coding" for me either. I'm doing research stuff at work, and that kind of occupies the same part of my brain that does c64-demos. So coding time per week: 0. For an Performers-X-demo I guess in total there's some 30-50 hours of coding in it for me.
That's life. Sometimes there's some C64 in it, some periods there's just not. So by now I've forgotten all about that yet-to-be-released Performers-greetings-part for X'20 - I did write some 100kB of Python code for it, modified the Vice source code in a virtual Ubuntu image I've got lying around somewhere, my sprite-multiplexer works "almost", and there's some SID bugs still. But, it will kick ASS when it's done. Someday. For the next X, I guess. Inspiration is kind of low until then. Write as many Performers-bashing-demos you want - we'll be back when the time is right. There's plenty of gob-smacking-moments yet-to-come! |
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Mibri
Registered: Feb 2018
Posts: 200 |
Quoting Pex Mahoney Tufvessonwe'll be back when the time is right. There's plenty of gob-smacking-moments yet-to-come!
Good!!! |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 716 |
I'm looking back at my glorious days when i also coded my demos at work.. but the last 10 years or so, i have not had that possiblilty. So it's a struggle to find some coding time inbetween kids and family biz, and that really drives me mad.
Coding at work is just so great! It's perhaps the best thing you can do! I don't know why.. but perhaps because it's the time of the day when you are the most awake. Also you can get that adrenaline kick of "what if someone finds out".. I tend to work very effectively since you never know how much time you will get, it might be over any minute.
Sometimes i can still do some kind of coding at work, but then it is restricted to maybe some python scripting to generate or convert stuff.. but for me, coding demo parts often involves doing some graphics, or trying out timing or stuff on the emulator, which requires tools that i can not easily have.. |
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Slajerek
Registered: May 2015
Posts: 62 |
Yeah, as others said it is hard to find time. Normally it is like now: so after 10 hours of work, then driving a car to family for a long weekend 4 hours, finally it's 2am and kid with wife went to sleep and considering that we have a bank holiday tomorrow, thus finally some time for me.
In most cases anyway when I start doing pure asm C64 stuff like now, I realise that there's something to change in the C64 Debugger, like bugs, ideas, whatever else and actually it takes ages to do something at least acceptable. Plus I know that I need to wake up quite early to achieve all bricks in the Lego2 game together with my daughter tomorrow ;>
Fun fact is that the best time for coding were long trips I used to have, a lot of nice ideas came about 30k feet above the ground, with cool clouds view outside the plane. Some draft coding was done there. |
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map
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 27 |
After not finding a proper timerslot for C64 activity alongside a demanding job and family for a long time, I came up with the following idea:
Since I am often too tired/wasted in the evening I go to sleep early and set my alarmclock to ~2:30h in the morning once a week.
This gives enough time for a quick breakfast and few hours of peaceful free time to continue on some of the projects, before family wakes up again and daily work kicks in again.
It was working for me for about three month in sequence, before the 'Summerbreak' started. |
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TPM
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 109 |
Having a busy fulltime job, freelance work, family, kids, running 4 hours a week and a social life.. it's hard to spend time to produce anything concrete. I have a small fun project, started last year and still not finished yet. But i still do have the ambitions and love for the scene and C64. Even after 25 years being "inactive". |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 110 |
Before the kids I basically programmed demo stuffs from end of workday into the night, arrived at work really late and slept most of the day. (always negotiated sofa for the workroom :D)
This was ofcourse only when a demo was "in production", so several weeks and getting more and more HC closer to party.
Nowadays the similar happens but it's not really feasible sustainably anymore as parental intervention is usually required on evenings and early mornings. So max few nights in a row.
This has changed the type of productions I do, usually just a few-night small prods.
..But seeing how lots of C64 gubbes have gotten back to demo programming recently (presumably because their children have became somewhat self-sufficient), I'm hopeful that these days are waiting for me too! |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
Quoting ZIGWhat I am asking is, how do you balance work and democoding?
Haha I don't really. I get far more demo coding done between contracts than when I'm in the middle of a stint of working 9-5.
As for time spent, it varies a lot. If an idea takes hold (I call it 'getting a brainworm') it'll be at least at the back of my mind night and day, usually just thinking about it, but sometimes writing little snippets of asm or prototyping data exporters in Python, either at breaks at work, or wherever I may be.
For a lot of effects, this is where I stop - I've way more effects that I've worked out how to implement than ones that I've managed to find time to turn into part of a polished demo.
If I actually start implementing something, then longer sessions become more useful. But even as an often self employed person with no kids, juggling demo coding time vs time spent on work and family still takes some negotiating and communication, so I don't *just* work on things at home in the afternoon. Sometimes I'll take my laptop off to MacDonalds or a pub for a few hours in the afternoon, other times I wake up at 3am and spent a few hours coding on the couch in the dark. Definitely easier to have at least some dedicated coding time vs time being 'present' - once I get in the zone I tend to be a bit hard to reach for anyone in the same room, or conversely if I'm focusing on being around for people I can do bits of setup or idea research but I can't turn code inside out or track down insidious bugs.
If there's a demo competition coming up that I'm prepping an entry for, I'll mark out some calendar time for the last two days before the event to hide in the corner for most of each day, but in the preceding weeks I just do half hour or so stints here and there, plus whatever insomnia frees up. |
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Mr. SID
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 421 |
I've managed to squeeze in about 2-3 hours every evening from ~9 to ~12pm for the last 3 years, coding almost 100% productively in that time (with almost no interruptions).
I completely avoid mixing in C64 stuff during the work day, even though it happens on the same desk these days (but not the same computer!). It's certainly better that way. |
