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MuZZa
Registered: Nov 2020
Posts: 16 |
Group id #11406 : Neonazi Cracking Crew
Hi all, I remember when we wanted to register on CSDB. almost a year requesting to we be admitted (literally a year asking to be allowed to create an account) for we be able to upload our stuff... And suddenly, by magic, we see that a group that proclaims itself "neonazi" with only one release during the '87, has an entry in the database. Sorry guys, it's inevitable for us, to ask ourselves, which is the objective of giving visibility to a group called NEONAZI... also that it doesn't even have big productions to be considered of importance for the demoscene (not even mentioning them).
if you have a table with 10 people and a nazi. So, you have a table with 11 nazis ... we are not sitting at that table.
Without the intention of generating discussion.
Moderator you can close this thread.
Best Regards,
The Codeblasters. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
- the group has no account
- csdb documents all scene productions |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3050 |
I don't think anyone of the members got account here. It was just added by a database user. Yes, it's stupid group name, and yes, nazis suck, but as far as the dabatase is concerned it's just entries and releases that were (if it's not fake content) released in past and documented here.
There is a lot of more or less controversial content (books, movies, tv episodes) produced in history of our civilisation, and I think it's okay to have them available for the sake of science, instead of burning them. Also it kinda sucks that I can't watch episode of Communityhseries called "Advanced Dungeons & Dragons" on Netflix because some people are offended by Chineese guy having black painted face in that episode for the sake of playing character in the dungeon and dragons game. I really think we should be careful with judgements and calls for burning and removal of everything that offends us it's a slippery slope. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335 |
Only single users have accounts. Groups have only database entries. If your group released any production, it should be here as valid group entry with list of members, releases etc. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3050 |
Quote: - the group has no account
- csdb documents all scene productions
You said it more effectively than me, thanx. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
Perhaps spanky can chime in? |
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MuZZa
Registered: Nov 2020
Posts: 16 |
We still don't want to generate a discussion about this, what we have written was rather a declaration of principles but in any case, the question remains unanswered: for example, if we as a group, we dedicated to promoting Nazism in our releases (CSDB will surely ban us for ever) but CSDB would keep our entries to document what our group did in their database... then, the Nazi propaganda would be continue accessible on-line in the CSDB database, even if we, as a group couldn't continue uploading releases. Although the account is a single user, the purpose can be used for the same shitty behaviour. Therefore, what is that motivates giving visibility to these kind of groups? none.
Best Regards. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
The motivation is to document what the scene released and releases. No more no less. That includes the shitty releases and the good releases.
And that particular release doesnt even contain "Nazi Propaganda". |
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MuZZa
Registered: Nov 2020
Posts: 16 |
Quote: The motivation is to document what the scene released and releases. No more no less. That includes the shitty releases and the good releases.
And that particular release doesnt even contain "Nazi Propaganda".
You are mixing two different things. One thing is what you consider to be a good or bad release (which is totally subjective). Another is what is propaganda. "Neonazi" for us in the name of the group is enough propaganda to kick their asses to the fucking hell and obviously not to even mention them as content generators. They offend only with the name. We understand the purpose of the database, there was no need to explain it. The criticism is oriented to the fact that this type of content should not even be admitted.
cheers |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3187 |
Muzza: by your reasoning all copies of Mein Kampf should be burnt and forgotten but it's even available on amazon if you want it.
Documenting also the bad things helps not repeating the same errors, or at least that should be the intention =)
You would be surprised how many pseudo nazi/commies/racist/every kind of extremisms (and other human stupidities) are found in some old C64 groups, you only spotted just one that have a obvious hint in their name.
Don't make it ruin your day. |
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MuZZa
Registered: Nov 2020
Posts: 16 |
Quote: Muzza: by your reasoning all copies of Mein Kampf should be burnt and forgotten but it's even available on amazon if you want it.
Documenting also the bad things helps not repeating the same errors, or at least that should be the intention =)
You would be surprised how many pseudo nazi/commies/racist/every kind of extremisms (and other human stupidities) are found in some old C64 groups, you only spotted just one that have a obvious hint in their name.
Don't make it ruin your day.
hi Ian! If I'm completely honest with you, I think that the sale of mein kampf should be absolutely prohibited (not forgotten but prohibited). With a single copy available in a library, it's enough for any idiot to think of himself as belonging to a superior race. And to ruin my day...trust me, I have enough with the nazis who flutter around in Spain like flies...for that reason I clarified that it was a declaration of principles and that I had no intention of generating discussion. cheers! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
Quote:You are mixing two different things.
nope. you are trying to make it different things. there is no reason whatsoever to not document those releases. documenting them is in no way related to acknowledging them, condemning them, or whatever else. Think of a history book. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
The funny thing is that their group name and that one release can be offensive only with historical context.
There doesn't seem to be any actual racist, fascist or otherwise objectionable text or speech contained. The intro scrolltext is perfectly innocuous.
If some person or extraterrestrial alien who'd never heard of Nazis, some guy called Adolf or repurposed swastikas checked out that crack, they wouldn't bat an eyelid. =) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
As IAN said, there are way more questionable things in old C64 releases (including actual nazi propaganda). And documenting that fact is a good thing in my book - removing it serves little purpose. |
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MuZZa
Registered: Nov 2020
Posts: 16 |
Quote: As IAN said, there are way more questionable things in old C64 releases (including actual nazi propaganda). And documenting that fact is a good thing in my book - removing it serves little purpose.
Do any of these groups with all this propaganda do you really believe that they have contributed in some constructive way to the demoscene? Or they have just done what they usually do, which is to keep spreading their hatred and their shit. Sorry friend, but I still don't share your reasoning, although I fully understand what you are saying. Anyway, thanks for the answers, this exchange has helped us. We continue to discover groups and people from the demoscene that for years we didn't know. |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1926 |
CSDb for quite some time does not only cover "contributions" but indeed many debatable entries - and sceners :)
We have seen about anything from text hacks of normal games to spread hate, race tests, shooting Gadaffis children, racist or abusive samples, cartridges with Trump speech, Skinhead, Majesty - *WE* tolerate, laugh and on historic things even often facepalm about some teenage kids reality in the 80s/90s :) (*WE* were all left-winged commie punks of course! (Gifted with expensive electronics.))
Actually one could also take such things and maybe even dissect them just like there is now a public version of Mein Kampf page by page commented and explained by "expert" historians and nazi specialists. There you will find many people that see such changes on the "original Mein Kampf" *very* questionable as well btw. :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
Quote:Do any of these groups with all this propaganda do you really believe that they have contributed in some constructive way to the demoscene?
thats irrelevant. if that'd be in some way a thing to consider about who or what is documented here, the majority of database entries would have to go. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1408 |
So, MuZZa had to wait for nearly a year, and NCC had to wait for 33 years? Seems reasonable :D
(but also yes, listen to Groepaz as usual) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219 |
What I find way more relevant is the question what Arkanoid has to do with Adolf. I wondered that before in Phantoms of the Asteriod and Jul Adolf |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1408 |
Hey maybe NCC were all about cracking neonazis' skulls open?
I mean, if there's nothing in the scrolltext either way the group name is really quite ambiguous. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1646 |
@CJam: Yeah, "Adolf" probably hated Adolf. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
I guess the use of swastikas in the intro is also quite ambiguous, then? :) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1408 |
Yes, they were probably just using the ancient Buddhist symbol to express their religious beliefs :D |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1646 |
@Cjam: I think you're onto something there! ;)
Anyway... While we're drifting away somewhat from the topic I might as well recommend the book "Ordinary Men" by Christopher Browning. It is interesting in the sense that it does not ask the question "How is it possible that THEY could do such evil things?", but rather "How is it that ordinary men, who were JUST LIKE US in many ways, could do these things?". If we're to "learn from history", as Ian pointed to, I think that is a more productive way to ask the question. While it may seem odd, most of us would have been Nazis — statistically speaking — if we were born in Germany in that time period. Personally I don't deletion of certain entries from CSDb solves much. :D |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
were? don't you listen to spanky? |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1926 |
Indeed our Head of SS groepaz is questionable in many ways. Nothing to discuss there.
Apart from that - we could add more categories and tags to "better" reflect the content! :)
Like racist, abusive, insulting, spanky... |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1408 |
Quoting Count Zero spanky...
HAH!
Someone's going to be apologizing for a terrible Madonna cover if this keeps up.. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3050 |
Quote: Indeed our Head of SS groepaz is questionable in many ways. Nothing to discuss there.
Apart from that - we could add more categories and tags to "better" reflect the content! :)
Like racist, abusive, insulting, spanky...
And who would be the judge when someone too woke would start to tag every nudes with "abusive" tag? Is e.g. Ripeness inappropriate? I feel a bit awkward to look at it, but it's kind of beautiful.
Btw. I still ask, how can we be 100% sure that NCC is real group and it's not fake with all it's entries? Can it be checked somehow for authenticity? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
I thought you can check the SYS line?
If people werent obsessed with ripping spreaddisks apart, we'd at least have some context. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3050 |
Quote: I thought you can check the SYS line?
If people werent obsessed with ripping spreaddisks apart, we'd at least have some context.
Would it help verify if it's an authentic or a fabricated file? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
Ultimatively you have to trust whoever digged it up, obviously. However, given that you trust the guy who digged it up, the context could tell a bit more about where it comes from. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219 |
Uploader Radd Maxx (USA) can be trusted not to make such stuff up.
And (unlike Spanky thinks) all Nazis after 1945 are either very-old- or neo-(new)-nazis, bottom line the term ain't so neo to have doubts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW8a-FcI10g
(Inspite of same Christian name and my history with living in Berlin, this ain't by me or any of my incarnations that cause redneck paranoia on Lemon). EDIT However, I wish I'd look as cool as the dude on the cover!
Seriously I'd say it's a lamer/fake label by some kids who laughed big deal about shocking people. And if they had known that people would still be shocked/puzzled some 35 years later, they'd have laughed their asses off :) |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 289 |
Quoting TheRykUploader Radd Maxx (USA) can be trusted not to make such stuff up.
100% this. Dude is completely dedicated to preserving history. |
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HOL2001
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 97 |
Also dunno why my handle is used within the filename?
Maybe Radd Maxx is upping some of my uploads from the Assembly64 Elaine Preserving Project? |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219 |
HOL: Possible. There _ARE_ users also browsing other web archives looking for things that are still missing here. That you used your handle when naming some Nazi.D64 image for the collection you've mentioned, is probably only your own carelessness ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
Some ppl do nothing but browse Assembly64 24/7, so yes, quite obviously its coming from there :) |
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HOL2001
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 97 |
Quote: HOL: Possible. There _ARE_ users also browsing other web archives looking for things that are still missing here. That you used your handle when naming some Nazi.D64 image for the collection you've mentioned, is probably only your own carelessness ;)
I just upped some random collections without checking content before. ;)
And no, I did not add my handle to the filename.
But probably "Elaine" dit it automatically. :) |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1926 |
Radd indeed does a great job on finding, documenting and adding stuff. Not only here but also on e.g. Gamebase.
He also seems to be the only one sometimes filling the comment field on Elaine and handled some 2000 HOL uploads already. WAY cooler than just throwing stuff in! :)))
Saving the whole disk image off from ASM64s' Elaine does not change the name - there are options to copy files off to a new image asking for a filename though. Likely the naming happened there.
Since loosing the Elaine ID (2764 here) usually means loosing the connection to the original dump INDEED those should be uploaded - tempering with them in ANY toolish way always leads to problems - of course.
Some stalking persistance made me find the originally uploaded dump back but I doubt it gives more insight.
Added to Arkanoid |
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Radd Maxx
Registered: Mar 2018
Posts: 63 |
Quote: Also dunno why my handle is used within the filename?
Maybe Radd Maxx is upping some of my uploads from the Assembly64 Elaine Preserving Project?
Yes, this came from Assembly. I apologize if I embarrassed you in this case. I put the name of the disk collection the ware came from in my filenames to help me keep things sorted on my end. |
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HOL2001
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 97 |
Don't worry. I'm not embarrassed in any way.
As the count said. Your work is very appreciated here. :) |
