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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4723 |
Release id #210333 : Babes
Discussion emerged. Posts below:
User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 17 October 2021
Looking forward to more tests btw. On real drives.
User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 17 October 2021
Ran it on a PAL 250469 REV A with a 1541-II without fastloader/cart. Cold boots between all runs. Tested it 20 times (even loaded different babes each time). Every load worked. I would say this release contains no loader bug (at least no bug that should matter), whatever you guys say, as it works, and should in emulation too. :)
And no fixed emulator version should be needed.
User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 17 October 2021
Copyfault: Making a modification should have its own entry imho. But I will try to run it from disk a couple of times too. If that works 100% the goal should be to emulate this behaviour in emulation too, even if it's a "bug" that makes it fail in Vice and 1541U2+. The goal for emulation is to mimic real hw. We should not make fixes for stuff to run on emulators. But I'll be back with a report.
User Comment
Submitted by Copyfault [PM] on 17 October 2021
Thanks for all your comments! To clear it up: on my real hw it refused to start most of the time! I did not yet try a real drive, so this might ease the pain.
Now the funny things after reading your proposals:
- it seems to always load with 1541-uII+ if I choose AR 6.0 as cart
- I did not ask to get it run for the actual contents but rather out of interest for such an edge case, since sometimes this sparks new ideas for exploitations
- even when I get this to load completely, it does always do a direct exit from the selection menu and the note is the only thing I get to see
The only real fix was the noloader-version by Ian Coog, since this can be loaded without any problems independant of the system setup (real thing/emu/cartridge setting) plus this one stays in the selection menu as one would expect. @IanCoog: thanks for fixing! Though I was sure this is some standard thing I have to admit that I did not know by heart the steps that need to be taken to get rid of the autostart stuff!
Would it be acceptable to add a dl link for this noloader-version to this entry? Or is this already "something new"?
User Comment
Submitted by Krill [PM] on 17 October 2021
Seems to be a race-condition, i.e., a bug in the code, not so much the emulator.
Set breakpoint in drive at $0403, then load with ,8,1.
When it breaks into the monitor,
vv vv vv
good >8:0000 0f 01 01 0f 01 00 00 00 1f 10 06 00 12 00 12 00
evil >8:0000 0f 01 80 0f 01 00 00 00 1f 10 06 00 12 00 12 00
Success depends on whether the block at T06/S00 has been loaded yet or not.
That it seems to always work on the real thing might be a meta-stability, and may depend a lot on various delays caused by physical disk access and disk layout.
That it reliably breaks in VICE (plain BASIC) might have to do with that.
I'd not be surprised if it randomly breaks on the real thing, too (with a somewhat lower probability than breaking in VICE).
User Comment
Submitted by Groepaz [PM] on 17 October 2021
It actually works in VICE (and chameleon too, likely also 1541) when loading it with AR5/6 fastload enabled. Very odd :)
(it's also not worth the trouble... pretty meh pictures :/)
User Comment
Submitted by Groepaz [PM] on 17 October 2021
How is it "faulty" though? it started up no problem 3 times in a row on the real thing :)
User Comment
Submitted by iAN CooG [PM] on 17 October 2021
Copyfault: that's the actual easier way to run it, by removing the faulty autoboot code, it's a simple diskeditor/hexeditor task.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f0y6kc4oo30rm3n/Babes-noloader.D64?dl..
User Comment
Submitted by Groepaz [PM] on 17 October 2021
The most important question is - does it work on the real thing?
User Comment
Submitted by Copyfault [PM] on 17 October 2021
Stumbled over this after seeing the new comments lately. So I tried to run it on the real thing (with 1541U-II+) and on the latest vice emulator also - without sucess!
Either it just stops loading, or -in the rare cases it manages to finish loading and starts to decrunch- the selection screen is built up but left towards the note immediately, without any chance to select "Collection".
Any ideas what's going on here? Any chances to create a... let's say "fixed version"?
User Comment
Submitted by TheRyk [PM] on 12 October 2021
yeah some drive emulation killer, I also needed several tries
RRR!
User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 12 October 2021
Took me a couple of tries in Vice to get it running (run it without fastloader), but eventually it works. |
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El Jefe
Registered: Jul 2005
Posts: 72 |
Also works on my 250469 REV 4 with 1541-II.
I haven't had time to test if it crashes after I disconnect the floppy drive, though. ;-) |
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Danzig
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 440 |
Quoting CopyfaultAny ideas what's going on here? Any chances to create a... let's say "fixed version"?
Quoting TheRykyeah some drive emulation killer, I also needed several tries
RRR!
Quoting hedningTook me a couple of tries in Vice to get it running (run it without fastloader), but eventually it works.
Seems to be a hardly needed fap for you guys! Congratz! Primary Life Goal achieved: 8bit fapping :-D |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
BTW, i tried in various emulators too, especially Micro64 which emulates mechanical delays - it works in none of them.
Quote:I would say this release contains no loader bug (at least no bug that should matter), whatever you guys say, as it works, and should in emulation too. :)
And no fixed emulator version should be needed.
yes, this. it's an odd edge case for sure, and the program is buggy too - but that doesnt mean it should behave different in emulation than it does on the real thing. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
I have a hunch that perfectly aligned layout (d64 on emulators) vs. substantial skew (most non-original home-formatted disks) might play a prominent role here. :) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219 |
Quote: Also works on my 250469 REV 4 with 1541-II.
I haven't had time to test if it crashes after I disconnect the floppy drive, though. ;-)
LOL made my day X_D |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 475 |
[Danzig-Mode = TRUE]
Quoting Danzig...
Seems to be a hardly needed fap for you guys! Congratz! Primary Life Goal achieved: 8bit fapping :-D Damn how did you find *that* out? Imagine my disappointment when seeing those... erm... "pictures" for the first time ;)
[Danzig-Mode = FALSE]
Quoting Groepaz...
yes, this. it's an odd edge case for sure, and the program is buggy too - but that doesnt mean it should behave different in emulation than it does on the real thing. Quoting KrillI have a hunch that perfectly aligned layout (d64 on emulators) vs. substantial skew (most non-original home-formatted disks) might play a prominent role here. :) Is this "substantial skew" in any way taken care of in nowadays emulators? Or maybe it's even some other yet-not-emulated effect that plays in here? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
VICE doesnt emulate it, D64 is always perfectly aligned. Same is probably true for other emulators - as that is the obvious way to do it (and it doesnt matter usually). 1541U even has an option to do it even for G64 files iirc :)
That said, it'd be worth checking if you can make the collection work by using a g64 file that has the track skew encoded into it. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Hmm, at some point i wanted to add various standard disk layouts (original DOS and a couple of popular fast-formatters) to VICE. Forgot about that until now. =)
Quoting GroepazThat said, it'd be worth checking if you can make the collection work by using a g64 file that has the track skew encoded into it. And the reverse, perfectly aligned disk on realthing to break it. :) |
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Danzig
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 440 |
Quote: [Danzig-Mode = TRUE]
Quoting Danzig...
Seems to be a hardly needed fap for you guys! Congratz! Primary Life Goal achieved: 8bit fapping :-D Damn how did you find *that* out? Imagine my disappointment when seeing those... erm... "pictures" for the first time ;)
[Danzig-Mode = FALSE]
Quoting Groepaz...
yes, this. it's an odd edge case for sure, and the program is buggy too - but that doesnt mean it should behave different in emulation than it does on the real thing. Quoting KrillI have a hunch that perfectly aligned layout (d64 on emulators) vs. substantial skew (most non-original home-formatted disks) might play a prominent role here. :) Is this "substantial skew" in any way taken care of in nowadays emulators? Or maybe it's even some other yet-not-emulated effect that plays in here?
Wow, Danzig-Mode :-) I was sure there only ever existed Groepaz-Mode ;-) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
Quote:And the reverse, perfectly aligned disk on realthing to break it. :)
but how? =) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quoting GroepazQuote:And the reverse, perfectly aligned disk on realthing to break it. :)
but how? =) Hasn't someone invented an aligned format for 1571? :) And if not, pretty surely you can do it with ZoomFloppy on 1571? |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219 |
with the right cable...!
and IIRC you need a "real" 1571 not the one bulit in in C=128 DCR
as already was stated, silly to do it just for this particular image, but should be possible in theory... |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quoting TheRykas already was stated, silly to do it just for this particular image, but should be possible in theory... Why? It's for science! To validate a theory! (And if proven right, the production would break.) :) |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 475 |
Quoting KrillQuoting TheRykas already was stated, silly to do it just for this particular image, but should be possible in theory... Why? It's for science! To validate a theory! (And if proven right, the production would break.) :) "For science". This! |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1646 |
We should all strive for wisdom, courage, temperance and justice, as Plato would have it. Pretty sure experiments with g64 images and alignment belong in there! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
meanwhile i have played around in VICE and made it generate the tracks with some offset similar to a real disk.... but no dice. there might be more to it :)
i also noticed that in the previous test the drive was running at just 287rpm, and it still worked fine - which makes it even less likely that stepping/seeking times are the problem |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Another thing to note is that Action Replay (which makes it work in VICE, unlike plain KERNAL) sets the disk controller timer period ($1c07) to $20 bycles before falling back to autostart KERNAL slowload, which then proceeds with that timer period without resetting it to the original value.
The original value is $3a bycles, so somewhat less frequent interrupts to check the disk until the M-E'd code sets it to $10 bycles (but then it's too late). |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1408 |
Quote: Quote:And the reverse, perfectly aligned disk on realthing to break it. :)
but how? =)
I mean, you can get pretty damn close by setting a timer off the preceding track to tell you when to write the next one. It was on the infinite todo list until Krill offered to write it first.
(of course, a certain someone then got all sidetracked into writing a faster screen-off loader than the one I was working on instead, so... ;-) ;-) ) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
https://sourceforge.net/p/vice-emu/code/40891/
doesnt really help with this collection though :) |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 226 |
Must be some very important collection making so many people discussing it and.. There is no graphician acredited for the original work?
Hope you get the intriguing disc-whatever-emulation/real-stuff working ;D
Laughing my arse off! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
Quote:There is no graphician acredited for the original work?
gfx credits for the original work of converting some random tit pics? you must be kidding |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 226 |
SO YOU HAVE SEEN IT! Share it ;D
Haha, I didn't think it had any value, but it obviously did for different reasons. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
Try using a C64 sometimes :) |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 226 |
Try making the emulator 100% :D |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
If you'd bother reading what you reply to.... oh well. Ian even fixed it for the emulamers :) |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 475 |
Quoting JoeMust be some very important collection making so many people discussing it and.. There is no graphician acredited for the original work?
Hope you get the intriguing disc-whatever-emulation/real-stuff working ;D
Laughing my arse off! While I'm sure the "artist" did hide for a reason (just as Groepaz already assumed), this loader quirk *really* seems to be connected to something not-yet fully understood. Guess the scene has reached a level that makes certain people behave like "Platon handling g64-files for science" - and I do think this is ok :)
Quoting GroepazTry using a C64 sometimes :) Quoting JoeTry making the emulator 100% :D Interestingly the loader does not only break the commonly spread sw emulation, but also most of the hw emulation as we have it on 1541ultimate. So using a real c64 but only a hw-emulated 1541 does not help, and this fact makes it even more interesting, well, at least for me! |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4723 |
Quote: Quoting JoeMust be some very important collection making so many people discussing it and.. There is no graphician acredited for the original work?
Hope you get the intriguing disc-whatever-emulation/real-stuff working ;D
Laughing my arse off! While I'm sure the "artist" did hide for a reason (just as Groepaz already assumed), this loader quirk *really* seems to be connected to something not-yet fully understood. Guess the scene has reached a level that makes certain people behave like "Platon handling g64-files for science" - and I do think this is ok :)
Quoting GroepazTry using a C64 sometimes :) Quoting JoeTry making the emulator 100% :D Interestingly the loader does not only break the commonly spread sw emulation, but also most of the hw emulation as we have it on 1541ultimate. So using a real c64 but only a hw-emulated 1541 does not help, and this fact makes it even more interesting, well, at least for me!
Yes. And this find is interesting because of that, not the babes per se. I am sure most old farts here are more turned on by driver emulation Matrix code than 80s babes, Algorithm excluded. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
PiCiJi did some more testing, and it seems to work with 1570, but not 1571 (hu?). It also seems to work with the 1541C ROM and the Jiffydos ROM in the drive.
It'd be interesting to know what ROM is in the drives of the ppl that tested it here :)
If you dont have a dos wedge kernal or AR or similar to check the powerup message, use
0 open1,8,15:inputa,b$,c,d:?a,b$,c,d:close1 |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4723 |
Quote: PiCiJi did some more testing, and it seems to work with 1570, but not 1571 (hu?). It also seems to work with the 1541C ROM and the Jiffydos ROM in the drive.
It'd be interesting to know what ROM is in the drives of the ppl that tested it here :)
If you dont have a dos wedge kernal or AR or similar to check the powerup message, use
0 open1,8,15:inputa,b$,c,d:?a,b$,c,d:close1
Will check. Will try some other drives as well while at it. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quoting Groepazand it seems to work with 1570, but not 1571 (hu?) Could reproduce this with VICE, but this seems to be the same stepping speed difference that makes it work with AR6.1570:
.8:f279 A9 20 LDA #$20
.8:f27b 8D 07 1C STA $1C07
.8:f27e 8D 05 1C STA $1C05
1571:
.8:f279 A9 3A LDA #$3A
.8:f27b 8D 07 1C STA $1C07
.8:f27e 8D 05 1C STA $1C05 |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
ha! |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Got around to test it on original hardware myself, and the results are consistent with VICE.
Works reliably on drives with a stepping speed of $20, never works with $3a, works on all of them if stepping speed is set to $20 when loading from Action Replay fastload.
The drives that didn't work (stepping speed $3a) were a 1541 and three 1541-II, the drives that worked (stepping speed $20) were a 1541-C, a 1570, and, interestingly, a 1571.
So it seems that there are different 1571 ROM revisions with either of the two stepping speeds, as with 1541-C. Maybe that's also the case for 1541-II?
Now, for those drives that worked (especially 1541-II) from plain BASIC for Groepaz, hedning, Shocker and everybody else, what does $1c07 read after power-up, and what's at $f27a? =) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
Quote:
Now, for those drives that worked (especially 1541-II) from plain BASIC for Groepaz, hedning, Shocker and everybody else, what does $1c07 read after power-up, and what's at $f27a? =)
How do i know? :) (mine was a 1570 btw) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quoting GroepazQuote:Now, for those drives that worked (especially 1541-II) from plain BASIC for Groepaz, hedning, Shocker and everybody else, what does $1c07 read after power-up, and what's at $f27a? =)
How do i know? :) (mine was a 1570 btw) Easiest way is to enter Action Replay monitor, then:@*80 <- @*8 might work as well, but i went by muscle memory
M 1C07
M F27A =) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
M 1C07 -> 20
M F27A -> 20 |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quoting GroepazM 1C07 -> 20
M F27A -> 20 Sort of expected with a 1570. =)
Would like to see some numbers from 1541/II that allegedly work. Hedning? Shocker? Anyone? :) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Bump. =) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Bump². =) |
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j0x
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 215 |
Had a go at this with my 1541-II ($1c07 and $f27a containing $3a).
With no cartridge attached:
* 90% chokes even before changing the border colour
* 10% reads what sounds like four tracks (tracks 6, 5, 4, 3?), then hangs. This matches what I see in my Vice version (3.3).
With AR attached:
* 90% chokes even before changing the border colour
* 10% it works!
I've tried making several copies on different floppy brands, always with the same behaviour.
This loader does not like my drive... |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quoting j0xI've tried making several copies on different floppy brands, always with the same behaviour. Could be worth a try to check a few different formatters (with a transfer solution that does not format before writing).
I'd try the old slow-format (@N etc.) and Action Replay fast format first. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
also formatting at different RPM (especially with AR style formatters) gives really interesting test cases |
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silpheed
Registered: Oct 2018
Posts: 6 |
I was able to test this today (1541-II with AR6, 1C07 & F27A = 3A). I don't think my results show anything new, but here they are anyway:
* Loading with AR6 fastloader works 100% (probably), but always exits to the note without a chance to make a selection from the menu.
* First try loading from plain BASIC worked, but got stuck after the 3rd or 4th picture when I chose the "Show All" option - it kept loading and stopping, loading and stopping without showing anything on screen until I gave up and reset.
* After that it failed 100% from BASIC.
* One more try with the AR loader, "worked" as above.
* After a reset, it worked 5 times from plain BASIC again, and on the first of those tries it completed the full "Show All" sequence (didn't have time to do that again for the other tries). Full power off and then on made it stop working again.
* Tried a few more times, seeming to confirm that loading first with the AR fastloader then warm reset will make it work reliably from plain basic. |
