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Forums > CSDb Entries > Release id #248155 : Hiking Home for Christmas
2024-12-09 23:04
Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2975
Release id #248155 : Hiking Home for Christmas

Drama posts go here:
2024-12-10 00:03
bugjam

Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2587
Submitted by CopAss [PM] on 8 December 2024
I have the same problem as with all your pictures: "workstages" are not authentic.
"For me" (and other artists) it's a reference photo/AI collage that was pixelated as a base.
Drawing initial sketches afterwards is not a "big deal".
Everything is "done" right away, nothing changes along the way.
The essence of pixel art is the same as in traditional drawing: make it your own, don't copy.

Watch The Sarge timelapses. This is the real drawing process. You can see how the composition is made, it's constantly changing. You don't see a final contour "done" right away.
A timelapse video made from scratch is always authentic.
https://youtu.be/yH7GdfY2iWQ?si=Uj1vOwiMiGuEgogZ

But of course I could be wrong.

Submitted by Critikill (CK) [PM] on 8 December 2024
@copass like mentioned before thousands of times: art is free and everyone can do what he likes - please respect it.

I spent hours and days making pixel art and of course I use different Refs for inspiration, but I have Ideas in mind first, which I draw, compose and arrange my own in many different ways. Everyone can make what he wants. And to draw with pencils, converting, and repixeling isn't better pixelart - also when I have to stare at cat number 375 without storytelling or an impact behind the picture.

So please leave me alone with these stupid timelapses.
No second visual artform in the world needs such stupid proof.

Submitted by 4gentE [PM] on 8 December 2024
Quote:

also when I have to stare at cat number 375 without storytelling or an impact behind the picture


In what universe was this called for?

Submitted by Raistlin [PM] on 8 December 2024
Critikill is exactly right to be annoyed here. What’s going on with the Timelapse policing? Are we actively trying to chase sceners away from C64 with this? Who does this benefit?

We have the “handmade” icon now so if people worry too much, restrict your “10” votes for those with that icon then?

Also, anyone asking to see workstages or to see better workstages.. should you really be doing that when your own releases don’t include workstages? Seems… hypocritical?

Submitted by 4gentE [PM] on 8 December 2024
Quote:

cat number 375 without storytelling or an impact


But see this quote up here is not “being annoyed by timelapse policing”. This is art critique. Perhaps even a tiny bit of personal lashing out against those who voluntarily provide timelapse. But, if we’re gonna do art critique, I can give you my own honest and argumented critique on this here piece of art if you want.

Submitted by astaroth [PM] on 8 December 2024
@copAss
With respect, but sometimes that is not possible. When I'm working on an image, I don't work on it for a whole day, but often spread out over several days, or even several weeks in the case of fallen heroes. Then I work on an image as it suits me, sometimes 10 minutes at a time, sometimes one, up to two or three hours, sometimes just 5 minutes in between during my lunch break or something. I often even forget to take a snapshot when I've been concentrating on it for two or more hours. And I often try out a lot before I'm satisfied with the result for a small detail. If individual workstages are no longer enough and a whole video is always required, then I'm out in future presenting stuff here. At the end of the day, I do it primarily for the group and myself anyway, because I enjoy it, not to please others and so that people can speculate about it.

Submitted by 4gentE [PM] on 8 December 2024
I’m not that fond of the whole “workstages” concept. Never have been. It feels kinda weird. There, I said it.
However.
To me, the workstages speak. They tell me the story of the creation process. That story in turn tells me more about the piece and how I should view it and appreciate it. They provide me with additional context so to speak. Whether we’re talking about a detailed timelapse spanning from the first pencil strokes to the final pixel touches, or just a few lazy pics.
Now, when I look at for example workstages for The Old Guardian , this is the story they tell me: one pic of completely unknown origin appears already converted and fully pixeled over. Second pic of unknown origin appears also already converted and fully pixeled over. The two are then collaged into the final pic. I’m not saying that this is the exact case. I’m saying this is the story these workstages tell. And I’m certainly not saying there’s anything “wrong” with this process. As someone mentioned, everyone can make what and how they want. There are many many artistic processes. No need to be stressed out about it. I see no “haters” here.
P.S. Of course, I’m speaking about standalone gfx that get entered into a compo, not about out of compo releases or gfx for demos.

Submitted by CopAss [PM] on 8 December 2024
@Critikill
with this "image" you won the function 2022 graphic competition.
https://demozoo.org/graphics/313073/
original image: https://www.christopherlovell.com/product-page/plague-dr
i know this image and i saw right away where you changed it. pixelation is not a big deal compared to creating the original image.
so this is not narrow-mindedness, it's just disrespect from you towards other creators. who spend long hours creating an image from "nothing". Not to mention that they practice for years, learn anatomy, improve themselves, etc.
and you submit an image that is cut out of ready-made images and pixelated. because this is your "art" and everyone should respect it!:D
but it should be "art", only then you have to write that you create this way and what source you worked from.
then everyone will decide how they will evaluate the picture.
but in competitions this is a disqualification...
you should respect the artists and the audience by not fooling them...
but i respect your art, on a certain level...

User Comment
Submitted by Critikill (CK) [PM] on 8 December 2024
@Copass if you would know the whole story about the pic, then you would know, that I asked Christopher back in the days and got his "ok" for making a pixeled Version. So what exactly is your problem here?
He also had a mega drive back in the days and liked "pixel art" ;-)

Also I made my Version without the central chain und the brush and made a little
different meaning out of it. (Corona times ...)

But before you continue to spread bad vibes here,
you should use the time to create something creative maybe.

Submitted by CopAss [PM] on 8 December 2024
@Critikill: it doesn't matter if he liked it, contributed to it, etc.
"fan art". if you can call a pixel perfect copy that, you've redrawn some things.
I can win without having to explain myself...
because of people like you who have a "anything goes in art" attitude, I can't take these graphic competitions seriously...
what's worse is that I'm not the only one who feels this way.
I just "doodle". but I've never been accused of copying...maybe it helps, to see the whole process in timelapse!:D
because there's no such thing as a perfect match between the first sketch and the final image!:D
so I'm not stupid, I know why you don't make a timelapse from the beginning...because it doesn't exist!;)
was that creative enough?!:D

Submitted by Critikill (CK) [PM] on 8 December 2024
@copass it does matter, if Chris liked it and he gave me his "go" like I have sent you the Email from him via pm. But you didn't answer.

So don't please play the stupid childish cop - that's just annoying. But no wonder your nickname says all.

Submitted by CopAss [PM] on 9 December 2024
@critikill
once again: from the point of view of the competition, it DOESN'T MATTER what the original author said!
this is cheating everywhere, because it's not yours.
you cheated, you got caught, now you're explaining yourself...
if you think this is just a problem for a few narrow-minded "boomers", then you're very wrong.
the party organizers "feel" this too, that it marks the event negatively.
the idea of ​​a "pre-jury" of experts has already been put forward to make graphic design competitions fair.
so maybe you should change your nickname to CopyKill! :D

have a nice day! :D

Submitted by hedning [PM] on 9 December 2024
CopAss: And you didn't copy anything somewhere without saying? A certain samurai panda in Mega Greetz comes to mind. Just to put some more gasoline on the fire. :)

Submitted by Critikill (CK) [PM] on 9 December 2024
@Hedning :-D
why not letting him be a copyass :-D

Submitted by CopAss [PM] on 9 December 2024
@hedning: demo compo, not graphic compo.
it a tradition that demo includes the party's name,logo and characteristic graphic details.
"panda visual with permission of pasy/rebels"
https://demozoo.org/productions/330009/info/21358/

Submitted by CopAss [PM] on 9 December 2024
@CopyKill: pathetic

Submitted by Scrap [PM] on 9 December 2024
Oh boy... How I hate these discussions popping up again and again. This should all be about fun and the hobby we all share. But instead grown up people argue about ridiculous banalities...

Submitted by Shine [PM] on 9 December 2024
"This should all be about fun and the hobby we all share."
T H I S ! ! !

Submitted by CopAss [PM] on 9 December 2024
@Scrap: let's say you draw a picture from scratch, working on it a lot. you submit it to a graphics competition.
then it turns out that the person who won the competition cheated!
will it still be "fun"?!
I highly doubt it...
that's why this topic comes up again and again, because it's not good!
30 fucking seconds to generate such a picture with AI.
https://ibb.co/94Q3Mmb
another fucking 30 seconds to convert it to C64
https://ibb.co/f1Cdkn3
the fact that you dither on it for several hours afterwards doesn't matter.
because the picture itself is already ready, you're just making it "prettier".
you only see "how beautiful it is".
you're blind and don't see how difficult it is to create this from scratch.
challenge: draw this picture in 1 hour with a pencil.
even if you succeed, it will still be just a copy. because you didn't invent it.
creating something new is incredibly difficult and time-consuming.

Submitted by Zierliches Püppchen [PM] on 9 December 2024
People will learn that you can't turn the wheel back. I enjoy the picture, the way it is implemented is great, nice light play, great color composition. First they complained about the work on the PC, then it was the use of Photoshop, now new technologies are emerging that help implement ideas. In the past, references from nature were taken, the 50th image of the partner in a frontal view, references to great masterpieces. I want to see breathtaking images that inspire with their execution. The sensitivities and morale are a different theater of war.



Just the 6,7 boomer boys trying to make the world a little better living and sailing in their tiny boat to discover the past thinking "everything used to be better" :-P


But exactly this is the reason I won't dive deeper in the c64 Scene.
To many loud and narrow-minded people. Demoscene for me is about fun.

cheers
2024-12-10 21:37
TheRyk

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2230
Drama deer and rage rabbit...

I am surprised that a year after Wired AI Ninja Compo 2023 AI-GFX-whining still seems to be a thing...

*threatens to do another crappy compo if you whine on*

Seriously, don't you think people are smart enough to see the difference between zero and maximum effort? Just because EVERYthing seems to be voted (<- yuck, bloody shame we still do it at all) 10 nowadays by a dozen of peoplpe, this doesn't mean, the other 1,700 users are dumb, they just don't give a damn. So I don't see why we have to lead the same debate forever and ever...

BTW I think this picture is above average, actually quite alright, neither a blast (though rabbits are the new dragons) nor effortlessly wired shit.
2024-12-11 12:49
Bitbreaker

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 506
I am observing those discussions for quite a long time. Some argue, that pixelling is all about fun. I'd say, if we are plain honest with ourselves, it is just half of the truth. Creation might be fun and there's also a goal behind creation, mainly presenting the result, earning praise and good votes or even winning a competition. I would love to ask, how much fun would it be, if you pixel those art just for your own, without ever showing it to someone else?
That said, how good are we at loosing and receiving feedback or critics? Can we accept it and reflect on ourself, or will we just start denying it and by that starting to defend ourselves? So in fact people hide a lack at certain skills, instead of being simply honest. This hiding leads to drama, to excuses, to cheating with worksteps, to insults and defending. That is, why i love a good portion of transparency on the creation process. With accepting that skills aren't well developed yet, one enters the chance of growth, with hiding that fact, one will stick to the old routine and never change, but keeping up the drama.
So becoming good, means to accept own failure first, which applies for all cetegories, not only gfx.
2024-12-11 13:23
Shine

Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 365
My personal opinion is that I really enjoy working with colors and shapes. I've been doing it again since 2012 and actually just wanted to upload my old logos from 1989-1993. Then I got caught up in the fascination of designing logos again. In 2012 I "worked" with Paint Magic and CCS64, which was really annoying. Then in 2013 Pixcen from CRT and PETSCII from MARQ came along.
And yes... since then I've been fascinated by the C64 again.
This whole AI discussion is a bit pointless in my view. There will always be people who do without it altogether and there will always be other people who use it for their own purposes.
The reasons may be very different...
Personally, I just want to have fun with my hobby and if I were to "cheat" I would be lying to myself. Since I'm not wired like that and I abhor any kind of cheating (even in games, etc.), I certainly won't take away the joy of my hobby. But I firmly believe that everyone can handle it however they want. The only thing I would like is a little transparency, but that is not required.

(Google Translate, because my English ... .. .)
2024-12-11 13:32
hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4726
It's one thing to make gfx for fun, which is of course what this is all about, but when competing with others in compos one should follow the rules in that compo, or else the compo is meaningless. Normally you expect original motifs and pixel work in gfx compos. In demos people will do wtf they want, as it's the total experience that counts there, be is with covers of known tunes or cool stuff from The Matrix or The Carebears.
2024-12-11 13:35
Shine

Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 365
@ Hedning:

I guess it will be very hard for the compo orgas to check, if AI was used or not...
And i guess also, that "Cheater" don't even care about rules.
2024-12-11 14:44
Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 949
Quoting Bitbreaker
I am observing those discussions for quite a long time. Some argue, that pixelling is all about fun. I'd say, if we are plain honest with ourselves, it is just half of the truth. Creation might be fun and there's also a goal behind creation, mainly presenting the result, earning praise and good votes or even winning a competition. I would love to ask, how much fun would it be, if you pixel those art just for your own, without ever showing it to someone else?
That said, how good are we at loosing and receiving feedback or critics? Can we accept it and reflect on ourself, or will we just start denying it and by that starting to defend ourselves? So in fact people hide a lack at certain skills, instead of being simply honest. This hiding leads to drama, to excuses, to cheating with worksteps, to insults and defending. That is, why i love a good portion of transparency on the creation process. With accepting that skills aren't well developed yet, one enters the chance of growth, with hiding that fact, one will stick to the old routine and never change, but keeping up the drama.
So becoming good, means to accept own failure first, which applies for all cetegories, not only gfx.


Imo, the paradox here is, if we don't share our creations, nobody cares about the process, only ourselves.
2024-12-11 15:24
Dano

Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 234
Honestly i give a proper fuck from where the motive or the work originates.

For me what counts is if the result is pleasing.

Why is it that much of a problem if people use the tools we got nowadays and take shortcuts where possible?

Where to draw the line of what is cheating? Already if a tool of sorts takes over the dithering and color reduction?

To me it can already be art and works if one writes a proper prompt for an AI of choice.

Is it cheating when i use ChatGPT a sparring partner when coding?

To me it's lame when somebody pulls off a straight conversion of an image without really putting effort into it.

But is it lame to composite assets into a new composition? I've seen works on the internet which are really cool, esspecially what the source material was.

We are in a time where tools can aid our work in many different ways. Even more and more sophisticated than putting a grid paper over a picture.

Seriously guys, be happy when people create something you find appealing in one way or another.

How good something is various from one to another. Don't blame people for being clever and achieve something in less time another person would.
2024-12-11 15:28
Shine

Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 365
About "Cheating":

Only I decide for myself what "cheating" means in my graphics. For everyone else, "cheating" may mean something different.
2024-12-11 19:30
4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 238
Honesty. Please be honest. It costs you nothing. Yet it grants you freedom. It helps you breathe deeper. Use whatever you like using. Just be honest about the process. What’s to lose?
In this aspect, for example Jetboy and Carrion are my absolute heroes.
2024-12-11 19:40
Peacemaker

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 251
good that time passed by, and we are using xassemblers and other pc tools. i would say without those helpful little helpers 80% of the current parts of the top demos would not exist.
2024-12-11 19:49
Shine

Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 365
Do new/modern tools justify the "simple" conversion of images, with negligible effort? (Esp. in Graphics Compos)
2024-12-11 19:58
Peacemaker

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 251
Quote: Do new/modern tools justify the "simple" conversion of images, with negligible effort? (Esp. in Graphics Compos)

i will recognize such work and build my opinion. on a party, i would vote like it deserves in my opinion ;)

let the people use ai. i dont care much. so, yes, let them use ai \O/

i would never thou speak out which persons i think use AI or any other helpful tools. unlike some of you guys are trying to blame others in public even without proofs.

if its realy important to you guys, then teach the masses how they can recognize AI converts.
2024-12-11 20:11
Shine

Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 365
I doubt there will be any kind of "AI-Protection" for C64 land.
And tbh: I don't really care, if people use it. The box of pandora is opened and that's all (end of story). ;)
It's a reference like anything else ... .. .
2024-12-11 20:56
CopAss

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 5
the only solution is for experts to analyze the entries for the graphic design competition.
in practically 5 minutes, you can find out if it's your own work.
the problem with the phases is that it doesn't matter which part is enough.
if you put a fake sketch at the beginning, the average person will believe it. that's why you need more phases during the process when the scene is being made.
the timelapse, in which you draw from scratch, eliminates all doubt. even the first 1-2 hours would be enough.
that's why it's interesting that none of them upload a timelapse...
2024-12-11 21:39
CopAss

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 5
"User Comment
Submitted by Raistlin [PM] on 11 December 2024
“Raistlin, how would you feel if lame demomaker demos got voted to top spots by your fellow sceners? Because it’s all good fun and they don’t care. Would you go on coding with same gusto?”

Sure. I mean, maybe not demomaker.. but, for me, many demos charting and winning compos are lame - code wise at least. It’s been that way for a while now. Demos are no longer about the best code - it seems we’ve gone the way of the PC demoscene so that stories and animation ideas win over technical wizardry. It’s sad and annoying… but we press on and we’ll be back at future demo compos for sure.

Don’t get me wrong, I understand the argument here re: AI or wired art .. but to attack every posted image.. and to not give evidence of copying etc.. I dunno, it’s a bit weak.

Compo orgas can ask for workstages or whatever proof they want. Maybe there can be some live-drawing compos as well?

Facet’s pics are stunning. I’ve only seen 1 piece of evidence of a copy, the car pic, and that’s the same evidence that El Jefe showed me a long time back. If there’s more, it would be interesting to see. But even with that car pic, although the shapes match, a ton of work was done on coloring - copying that I’ve seen of others, including those who’ve weighed in on the no-copy thing and shown the 5-fingers logo, has had much less extra work done. If those fighting the no-copy cause are also copying, isn’t it a bit hypocritical..?

User Comment
Submitted by CopAss [PM] on 11 December 2024
@Raistlin: "post-processed converted image" vs "drawing from scratch"
the final image never matches the sketch, as the content and composition are constantly evolving along the way. it is refined.
fools gold - joe: https://ibb.co/yVgXcPj
slobber - the sarge: https://youtu.be/hOPguluQUDA
escaping an dinner - copass: https://youtu.be/fLU7HeTB7c0
end boss - critikill: https://ibb.co/TH282r2
green man - facet: https://ibb.co/58MdKhy
do you see the difference?
joe,sarge and I have reworked either the whole image or just parts of it several times.
with facet,critikill the contour is there perfectly and they don't touch it once.
they don't touch the sketch because they copy from a finished image.
you can't see how the image was created, just "puff" and there's a finished contour and all you see is dithering! wtf?!:D
Anyone who has ever drawn knows what I'm talking about."
2024-12-11 22:51
El Jefe

Registered: Jul 2005
Posts: 74
Quote: I am observing those discussions for quite a long time. Some argue, that pixelling is all about fun. I'd say, if we are plain honest with ourselves, it is just half of the truth. Creation might be fun and there's also a goal behind creation, mainly presenting the result, earning praise and good votes or even winning a competition. I would love to ask, how much fun would it be, if you pixel those art just for your own, without ever showing it to someone else?
That said, how good are we at loosing and receiving feedback or critics? Can we accept it and reflect on ourself, or will we just start denying it and by that starting to defend ourselves? So in fact people hide a lack at certain skills, instead of being simply honest. This hiding leads to drama, to excuses, to cheating with worksteps, to insults and defending. That is, why i love a good portion of transparency on the creation process. With accepting that skills aren't well developed yet, one enters the chance of growth, with hiding that fact, one will stick to the old routine and never change, but keeping up the drama.
So becoming good, means to accept own failure first, which applies for all cetegories, not only gfx.


This!

Very precisely observed and to the point!
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