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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4595 |
Release id #158304 : Heil Hitler
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 23 August 2017
Moving the comments to the discussion soon.
User Comment
Submitted by Seven [PM] on 23 August 2017
So let me get that right. You're on the forefront deleting "cracks" in the database, but distributing nazi propaganda is part of the scene?
How about you put that shit on your beloved boards and remove it here then.
User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 23 August 2017
Well. It's part of the scene history, just as all other disturbing shit. I bet you can find countries where nudes and porn are banned - should we delete all that too? Disclaimer: germans - don't download this. You probably know your own laws. Just like you shouldn't google "Heil Hitler" etc in Germany.
User Comment
Submitted by fieserWolF [PM] on 23 August 2017
Stop distributing this shit. Also, illegal to have this on your computer or phone in Germany |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4595 |
Seven: What cracks am I deleting? I have no clue what you are talking about. I am one of the guys that want to preserve as much as possible.
Also: Preserving scene releases does not mean "spreading propaganda". I agree this release is disturbing, but so are communistic propaganda, homophobic crap and other shit found in the C64 scene throughout the last 35 years. What we shouldn't do is "cleaning up", censoring, the scene's history making it something else than it was. That is pure historical revisionism. What's next? Deleting all releass mentioning Kim Jong-Il? Nudes? Porn? All demos with homophobic scrolltexts or gfx? Please enlighten me?
The release is now only downloadable for logged in users. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4595 |
For now the file is hidden from download. I have started a thread about it with the moderators to see what their view is on this. And please understand that I uploaded this the second I found it, just like with all other releases I find, because I want as much as possible preserved. The scene is what it is, and by historical reasons I don't want the ugly parts hidden away, making the scene look better than it was. That would be lying. It's not about spreading propaganda. Then every communistic or political release should be banned. + all offensive stuff like releases with homophobic content or stuff like that. And yes, I am a history teacher, and know the importance of not "cleaning up" history, hiding uncomfortable stuff away. And I should not have to point out that I do not back up nazism/fascism in any way, but as the reactions were strong enough (people hunted down my team mates in GP and were pissed off on them) I think it's good to be really clear on that point.
I am perfectly aware of the laws in Germany too, but if you live in Germany you are aware of that you make a crime by downloading this, just like you should not google nazi pics and download them. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1989 |
Please remove the following also:
Dansa med Achmed
Red Storm
Piccolo Mouso
The Nazi Commander
I Need Gays |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 444 |
It's impossible to have categorical rules that apply to *everything*. But I at least hope most would agree: Wherever you "draw the line", this one should be beyond it.
And as I had been working a couple of years in a nursing home for disabled people I can assure you: there are a bazillion different flavours of crap ;-) |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Censorship is fascism. Just because Germany has stupid rules doesn't mean it should apply to the rest of us. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
If anything offends you, or your "laws", well, look away. You can't apply local rules to an international site.
And cracks are not deleted, just hidden for some time. After that time, they get visible again. Infact it's _REQUIRED_ to upload the crack and make it invisible if it's the case, if you want a new crack entry in here. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1989 |
Quote: Censorship is fascism. Just because Germany has stupid rules doesn't mean it should apply to the rest of us.
word! Hiding Nazi propaganda wont help avoiding the rise of neo-nazis. Only education, history and removal of poverty and misery will. |
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Adam
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 321 |
Quote:Submitted by Seven [PM] on 23 August 2017
but distributing nazi propaganda is part of the scene? How about you put that shit on your beloved boards and remove it here then.
a release.. from 1986... HAHAHAHA. what took you over 30 years to complain? are we now going to revisit every single damn release in this database, proofread every scroll and screen of text because it might offend someone? this is utterly ridiculous and truly pathetic on a grand scale. don't like the release? too damn bad for you. why should it be deleted? 30 years after it was released? there is no reason at all to justify a sad and pathetic attempt at censorship.
卍卍卍卍 I'm tempted to just name anything I make from now on as HITLER and throw in NAZI symbolism in everywhere I can just to piss you off! :D 卍卍卍卍
Quote:Submitted by fieserWolF [PM] on 23 August 2017
Stop distributing this shit. Also, illegal to have this on your computer or phone in Germany
卍 leave germany. problem: solved. 卍
this is how far we've progressed? 2017: it offends me! delete it from the face of the earth!
gtfo xD
this is not the right way to run a historical database. censorship of any kind should not be tolerated in any way whatsoever by anyone, no matter how offensive it may be to you or anyone else that disagrees with its subject matter or content.
please restore the link, hedning. don't let these weak pansies dictate how things should be run.
Quoting JackAsserPlease remove the following also:
Piccolo Mouso
you bastard! ;) |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
adam: that's the buddhist symbol of peace, it's used to indicate temples in the maps; the swastika is oriented the other way. JFYI |
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Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 201 |
Somebody seems to think that CSDb has existed since 1986 and can't tell when a release has been added to a database just recently.
Good talk. |
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Adam
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 321 |
Quoting SevenSomebody seems to think that CSDb has existed since 1986 and can't tell when a release has been added to a database just recently.
Good talk.
let's see what i wrote..
Quote:a release.. from 1986... HAHAHAHA. what took you over 30 years to complain?
nope, nothing there that says csdb existed 30 years ago?
so because it was uploaded recently, that is your piss weak excuse for censorship? are you kidding?
if you don't like it, leave. why should we have to put up with censorship such as this? because you and that other fascist are offended? get real. |
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The Overkiller
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 342 |
These are part of the C64 Scene so nothing should be deleted, and I remark n o t h i n g |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Quote: word! Hiding Nazi propaganda wont help avoiding the rise of neo-nazis. Only education, history and removal of poverty and misery will.
Right. Whatever's forbidden is more alluring. Can even remember some teachers' kneejerk reactions from school when a kid happened to draw a swastika, rational & calm approach to educate why that's nothing to idolize would've likely worked better. |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 422 |
tldr: someone did a bad taste demo 30 years ago and it got added to the db now. So what? JackAsser is right.
There are many unfortunate events in the past, but they are freely discussed in historical texts. Also there are some c-64 productions that are immature, ignorant and in bad taste. Very few productions that I've seen I'd consider hateful. They also exist here for historical reference. What would be the point of hiding/denying their existence? Surely no-one sane, that sees 30 year demo is going to go rampant just because of a demo? I really worry about someone that would be willing to kill just for an idea that they read from a 30 year old demo. Why did not the ww2 history documentary trigger this action? or perhaps a thousand or two thousand year old writing?
Meaning is an observer effect. Nowadays people get offended about everything and immediately blame others for what they feel. That is just illogical and wrong. Some choose to accept an alternative reality or an ideological bubble and remain resentful toward everyone else as they themselves are unable to deal with the reality.
Please, accept the past and present in all its rawness and ugliness and life of everyone will be much easier. Read history and learn about all the mistakes made and accept that they really did happen, and now that we have learned from them, we may avoid the mistake in the future.
But, if this really is about obeying the law, then I suppose that the laws of the country that has the servers, or that of the EU, apply? |
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lft
Registered: Jul 2007
Posts: 369 |
Quote:Surely no-one sane (...) would be willing to kill just for an idea that they read from (...) a thousand or two thousand year old writing?
Pardon me for quoting in such a barbaric way, but I'd like to point out that the above happens all the time. But censorship isn't the answer to that problem either.
Many people have a strong instinct to try to erase ideas that they perceive as immoral. The civil way to go about it is to leave the ideas out in the open, and counter them with arguments. A constructive way forward could be to add a comment on the release, with a link to some sensible online anti-nazism resource. |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
I'd just let it go, I can't download the "demo" in question, but I suspect it was made by a couple of teens trying to shock people, well, they managed it after 31 years, hurray!
Things like these are a part of scene history, no matter where you stand politics/religion-wise. Just look at it, downvote if you wish and move on, adding comments only serves to attract more attention. |
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Scan
Registered: Dec 2015
Posts: 110 |
Welcome to the Barbara Streisand effect. :D
On a more serious note, I agree with the people that think it should stay. CSDb is like a history book of C64 demo productions, and whether you like this one or not (to stress: I do not) it's part of C64 history.
Also, different people feel offended by different things. If we now would give in to your request to remove it, what's next? Where do we set the boundaries? Are we going to have to change all scrolltext of demos that say "Hi boys and girls" to a gender-neutral version?
This is a preservation site, with all the nice things and alas also the not so nice things. My advice, suck it up, deal with it. By drawing attention to this mediocre piece of code you only sparked a conversation I wished I never had to witness on CSDb. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Huh? The moment I click the link I download the screenshot on my computer. Why hide the download?
Anyway, Heil Trump! |
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Scan
Registered: Dec 2015
Posts: 110 |
Quote: Huh? The moment I click the link I download the screenshot on my computer. Why hide the download?
Anyway, Heil Trump!
Hedning has disabled/hidden the download for now until he and the other admins have decided how to deal with this stuff. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
The .prg is hidden, the screenshot is not and now it's on my computer. Nazi clickbait is the new black. |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
Downloaded the screenshot, should I ever have to unfriend multiple people on Facebook, this will probably do it automagically. |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2894 |
Oh, if that is what you're trying to do this screenshot from Proud to Be German will probably work better
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2070 |
Oh my goodness...
Seriously, I'm pretty sure, my political attitude is FAR left from ultra-right, and - though I cannot judge due to censorship - pretty sure I disagree with the whatsoever content, judging only from the title. However, I can't believe we're even discussing ban/deletion.
If you stick to hiding or even banning this one, there's tons of stuff to be removed, whole groups. Among the - according to the Philistine deputy sherrifs - to-be-deleted stuff are many releases where Nazism/fascism is made fun of (it's called irony, humour-free people should look that up). Might not be the case here, but if we start with politics, pr0n's next. What about all the hate intros? Cracked games, aren't those illegal, too? /o\ |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 444 |
*erm* I must admit, I don't know what is happening "behind the scenes", but in *this* particular thread I only see three people (including me) who just expressed in short sentences that they personally don't like/need/want this shit. I fail to see the reason for the censorship, philistine, moral blabla debate that followed. Can't speak for fieserWolf or Seven, but as far as I'm concered: I'm not offended, I don't care if it's legal / illegal. I just don't need this shit and if this was *my* website I wouldn't want to host this (at least not available for the public). And as I stated above: I personally choose to differentiate between shit I tolerate and shit I don't tolerate anymore. For *me* this particular release belongs to the latter. If CSDb staff decides they'll tolerate it: so be it. No problem. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
The problem with deleting shit that we all agree on is completely tasteless and offensive is that after that has been deleted then there will be some other stuff on the top of the list of offensive releases. And surely there will be people arguing that if the other stuff was deleted, why can't we also delete this? So, to avoid a constant discussion about what should be deleted, I think it's much simpler to just host everything that's released on the c64 scene, unless it clearly violates the law where it's hosted. |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
Mein Kampf became legal in Germany in 2015. Nazi symbols like swastika, SS sign, etc are legal if shown in movies, books, computer games, etc because it's considered art and not nazi propaganda.
Other countries have different laws about nazi symbols, but you can read everything here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_legalit.. |
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ptoing
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 271 |
Quote: Mein Kampf became legal in Germany in 2015. Nazi symbols like swastika, SS sign, etc are legal if shown in movies, books, computer games, etc because it's considered art and not nazi propaganda.
Other countries have different laws about nazi symbols, but you can read everything here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_legalit..
Partially correct. Nazi symbols are fine in things that are considered art or for educational purposes. Video games are not considered art by German law, so any Nazi symbols in games would get your game instantly banned (meaning you can not sell it legally. You can still own it.)
It would actually be interesting if a whole bunch of big games companies would file a class action kinda thing in Germany to get video games considered as art, but oh well. |
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Brataccas
Registered: Jan 2015
Posts: 15 |
This topic is very current - there's an article today in the BBC news about a Canadian town refusing to remove swastikas from a park for historical reasons:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41028895
Personally, these parts of the past are embarrassing, but we can't pretend they didn't happen. I'd vote for some kind of flag to mark 'offensive' entries and let people filter what they want to see. |
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lft
Registered: Jul 2007
Posts: 369 |
Quoting BrataccasI'd vote for some kind of flag to mark 'offensive' entries and let people filter what they want to see.
There's something deeply unsettling with this idea in general. Of course, for something like CSDb it would probably work fine. But when it's applied large-scale, as is done silently by Google and Facebook, it leads to a society where people or groups of people withdraw into their own bubbles of ideas/morals/truths that are self-consistent, but incompatible with ideas outside the bubble.
The overall effect of this will be a reduced ability of people to communicate across cultures. It will slow down the Enlightenment again, undoing some of the advances that the Internet brought. It will smooth out and hide controversies in the short term, at the cost of increased risk of conflict later on.
The world may be ugly sometimes, but the first step to doing anything about it is to see it for what it is and live in reality. Hiding the ugly stuff is counter-productive.
This is one argument against censorship, and it is different from the ones put forward by Croozor (where does it stop?) and by hedning (dangers of revisionism).
Like spider-j, I'm not trying to force CSDb to adapt to my moral views. That would be futile, and also uncivil. Censorship, like nazism, is often described as a force of darkness, i.e. the best way to get rid of it is to shine light on it. So that is what I try to do: Looking at the matter from various angles, exposing what I think are the ugly bits. I encourage others to do the same to my arguments.
But I think this thread has gone off on a tangent, because we are failing to discuss a most interesting point made by Seven: If we do not hide nazi propaganda, why do we hide releases that compete with commercial products? Is copyright more important than ethics, and more important than historical accuracy? I can understand how that position is offending. Can we try to shine some collective light on that? |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
I understand that to be out of respect as the (hobbyist) creators are usually known here, the circles are small, as are the sales. And it's a time-delay mechanism so that the stuff will eventually be put on download, unlike censoring a release for good. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote: I understand that to be out of respect as the (hobbyist) creators are usually known here, the circles are small, as are the sales. And it's a time-delay mechanism so that the stuff will eventually be put on download, unlike censoring a release for good.
The same can be said about old nazi releases made by some dumb teenager. Imo it would only have to be censored to protect the creator. We don't know if the creator is still a nazi-douche or has evolved into a left winged punk-head. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Right, then we get into the "right to be forgotten" vs. history integrity argument.
Not having any idea, how common are deletions by request due to the release itself containing personally identifying information here? |
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Fix
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 54 |
Maybe a Note or Disclaimer before downloading disturbing releases that are propaganda, porn or similar? |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2070 |
I don't get why the discussion keeps digressing into the points
- law <- Cracking scene has always been kinda "lawless", anyone who thinks downloading cracks can by any means be declared legal, is naive, our blessing is, no one cares about some thousand weirdos who still fuck around with 30 something years old systems
- moral <- I hope(!) that 99 + x % of all visitors, registered or not, find Nazi messages disgusting (though I can still only judge from the title)
What we're dealing with is alone the question:
Should offending stuff be deleted or archived?
My point of view is pretty clearly the latter, as I think, you can also overdo political correctness. This thread already shows via entry links that the consequence would be endless discussion about entries EVERYONE had on disk back then, no matter how immature/disgusting/politically incorrect they might have been or be in the aftermath. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
I want all robric tunes deleted, they offend my sensibility. |
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White Flame
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 136 |
I permanently switched over to ZX Spectrum and now everything C64 related is offensive on the highest order. Remove this entire site or else. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11113 |
Quote:how common are deletions by request due to the release itself containing personally identifying information here?
i dont remember any from my moderator times. i am pretty sure they would be turned down too. (i know we banned people who tried to edit their history into their liking) |
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Zierliches Püppchen
Registered: Jan 2012
Posts: 14 |
Oh great discussion,
But hey, who cares the political color of an 1986 release ... its part of c64 history.
Removing myself from social media is one of my favorite acts @moment. Time to remove the next account ... i am off. |
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Claus_2015
Registered: Oct 2012
Posts: 53 |
My current favorite act: posting about my social media boycott :-D |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11113 |
Wanna join our anti surveillance facebook group? |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4595 |
Quote: Oh great discussion,
But hey, who cares the political color of an 1986 release ... its part of c64 history.
Removing myself from social media is one of my favorite acts @moment. Time to remove the next account ... i am off.
<Post edited by hedning on 27/8-2017 20:42>
As Elko started manipulating the database he will not be able to answer here anymore. |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2894 |
Ah yes, the latest ragequit |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
it's a pity the discussion here is going off-topic, as it's interesting to see how it all ends. All releases will be kept because CSDb is just a database (hehe)? or offending releases will be hidden/removed from the site till the world grew up?
I guess Moloch is tempted to close the topic, don't make him happy this time pleez. :) |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2477 |
I guess everything has been said already. Making the dl visible only for logged-in members should be the way to go I think.
A pity about Elko, another one gone. :-/ |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4595 |
I won't let Moloch close this thread. I will do it. |
