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Forums > CSDb Entries > Release id #166930 : Yoomp!64 +3PD
2018-08-02 23:35
hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 1842
Release id #166930 : Yoomp!64 +3PD

Moved the discussion to the place for discussions. :)

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 2 August 2018
Backup board is invoked if one of the main boards is down during the whole 24h. How would it make sense otherwise? If Reflections was down one hour 03 in the morning just when you tried to upload your crack, the rest of the groups wouldn't notice, and lose just because one board was down for some time during the 24h. 24h rule must mean 24h. If one board is gone for 24h, the backup board goes into effect. That is logical to me. Especially as the race isn't over until 24h have passed.

If two or three (our four?) boards all have hickups during the 24h you mean there are no boards to be counted? Your view of the rules does not make sense. I will count the boards and the releases after 24h have passed. That will show who won the race.

User Comment
Submitted by Jazzcat [PM] on 2 August 2018
We were first on all boards and sites initially. During that time both Antidote and The Hidden were down, according to the rules, the backup site RapidFire is then invoked and we were first there (and Reflections) thus we were first on the majority of boards using the 24 hour rule. Regards. Note: you cannot re-invoke downed boards. When they are down, backup is in play.

User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 2 August 2018
Antidote and The Hidden were down for some time, but came up within the counted 24h when we tried to upload our crack, and we were able to be first on both. We also went with Reflections and the backup BBS Rapidfire, even if the latter is a bit redundant, as we already were first on 2 out of 3 counted boards within the counted 24h. Cheers!
 
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2018-08-10 00:11
hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 1842
Quote: groepaz: they gave a goof. :)

As stated above, it's no goof. At least not from our side.
2018-08-10 00:21
hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 1842
Quote: Hello all! I missed all this drama, which is a shame as it looks like it was fun :D

Ok, so from my side, what I know is this:

Game was classed as complete quite a while ago, beginning of the year was when the last significant changes were made (passwords having numbers removed to make it easier for the end user to read with the game font). Release was held back significantly due to the graphic designer I work with going through some serious real life issues.

It's quite clear, and I am transparent about the fact that Jazzcat assisted us with testing the game (ONS) on various machines (he is even listed in the credits for this). In addition to this, of course, MCH is the musician (the GP connection here).

A few weeks before release, I noticed that the RESTORE key crashed the game. I asked the developer for that fix as a last minute change before making the carts and the sending the disk version to Kenz at Psytronik.

Obviously, GP had the version previous to this change. Other than that, as far as I know, there is no difference between the two.

I personally had no contact with GP about this game around the time of release - and I know that ONS 'released' their crack at exactly the same time I made the game available. So in my personal opinion, ONS release was really the 'firstie' in this case, but to call the GP one a 'preview' is unfair. Of course, it's obvious (in hindsight) that GP were expecting the first release as their musician was involved. But there was no contact with them to plan a joint release from my side.

What should have happened here is that ONS should have simply uploaded their crack to CSDB - as it was indeed released (digitally) for free/PWYW with all $ going to the developer. I/we really appreciate the store links, but no-one asked if I would object to the CSDB entry having a DL (and I don't).

Anyway, guys, can't we all just get along and declare this one a 'draw'? :D


I can only congratulate Jazzcat having you running a game company supplying him the goods, really, crackers do what they do, but I wonder how you can keep your cool towards the game makers when it's obvious you leak almost all the games to a cracking group? It's quite fascinating from that perspective. As I have talked the coder of Yoomp64, I also know that he asked you specifically not to, and I know it happened before too, with another coder.

Oh, and if you need another tester I have all the gears needed. Just ask me! I'll do it for free. :) I have a good reputation testing. :D
2018-08-10 00:45
spider-j

Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 173
Perhaps you guys should get a dishing machine to clean your dirty dishes :-P

Anyway: about how CSDb should handle cases like this, my 5 cents: either both or none of those two releases should get "first release" flag and explanation could go into the "trivia" field. Just copy'n'paste this discussion. Cases like this are quite rare in the end.

For me personal ONS would deserve "first release" this time, just because common sense tells me "first" means "first". But on the other hand you dug your own grave with making up some rules that make second releases first or first releases second, depending on how someone interprets those rules.

I must admit, it's quite interesting to watch defenders of those rules that I never really understood arguing about them.
2018-08-10 00:47
Tim

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 463
I am not going to argue who has the first release.
IMHO both VN/Propaganda had incomplete rules to cover what happened, it will fall under editorial decisions, so be it.. agree to disagree, start your own mag, whatever..

So that aside.. I do want to raise the point of labeling a game preview/beta.

Am I REALLY the only one, who remembers the days that we would all applaud teams that managed to do whatever it took (including selling their mothers) to first release a game BEFORE it hit the streets?

As much as I appreciate Heavy Stylus popping in and clarifying a few things, the developers standpoint of what is their 1.0 release is only mildly interesting to determine if a crack is a justified first release, because it makes comparing GP’s version to the studio’s final easier.

But say hypothetically that GP had released their version 4 weeks ago.. Would anyone here have disputed it being a first release full game?

If you are tempted to say yes..
please note there’s 2 points here:

1. There is an unfixed restore bug
2. The game has not been released as a studio 1.0

Point 1 -> without a doubt, this can easily be dismissed based on a handful of releases from the last two years that had a restore bug, and points were awarded by both mags.

Point 2 -> imho is a simple matter of know your history.

I can understand some of us saying it’s 2018..
perhaps a rule needs to change, after all we work closer with/and try to support devs in our cracking community..

Perhaps someone even thinks “hmm, what actually differs a preview/beta/full game.. ok, so open that debate in a separate thread fine.. I can grasp that sentiment to a point.

What I just cannot grasp is if anyone here from our cracking scene would say “yes, this is a reason to dismiss a release from first release points“ solely on the reason that a studio has not released a title as their 1.0.

That is just simply wrong by blatantly ignoring decades of cracking history.
2018-08-10 00:56
Tim

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 463
Quote: Perhaps you guys should get a dishing machine to clean your dirty dishes :-P

Anyway: about how CSDb should handle cases like this, my 5 cents: either both or none of those two releases should get "first release" flag and explanation could go into the "trivia" field. Just copy'n'paste this discussion. Cases like this are quite rare in the end.

For me personal ONS would deserve "first release" this time, just because common sense tells me "first" means "first". But on the other hand you dug your own grave with making up some rules that make second releases first or first releases second, depending on how someone interprets those rules.

I must admit, it's quite interesting to watch defenders of those rules that I never really understood arguing about them.


I'll second the CSDB suggestion.. either both or none, and leaning to none as preference because;

1. First on csdb in theory would be an option too, but would mean having to reset a hell of a lot of historical flags.

2. There's a conflict now with 2 mags, in theory (if Didi reboots his mag) there are 3 with 3 potential outcomes, and future proofing there might be more at some point.

IMHO based on previous statements CSDB is a database logging releases, so using all or none in case of conflict seems the most logical indeed.
2018-08-10 01:12
Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 129
Just to say while someone’s talking about the rules being broken before... the Vandalism rules were updated following this release to define it in a way that, of course, would give Onslaught the first. If a BBS is down, they go to the backup.

What’s not clear to me though is:-
- how long does the BBS need to be down? A second? A minute? An hour? 24 hours?
- how is the BBS being down verified?

To me, just saying “you can use the fallback if a BBS is down” is just open to even more cheating... it’s not clearly defined. It’s STILL a broken rule. This stuff isn’t rocket science... choose a rule and stick to it.

Propaganda’s rules, to me, make sense. 24 hours means 24 hours, down means down, etc. This is what’s needed: hard and fast rules that don’t allow cheating.

Jazzcat claimed that groups may cheat by making BBS’s go down to their advantage... this seems very odd to me - if you can’t trust the 3 BBS’s that you list as the mains, you have the wrong BBSs. Surely you NEED to be able to trust them to be fair? If you can’t, it’s not just them being “down” that you should worry about - you should worry about traffic priority, transfer failures and all sorts of dirty tricks that could be used. Trust them 100% - or not at all.

Also, wow, if what Hedning says is true, which i’m sure it is, feeding releases to a crack group against their will is an amazing way to make sure you’re not publisher more from that developer.
2018-08-10 02:54
Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 961
Quote: My 100 cents,

If any group releases a version of a game not based on the release version in my view it's a beta, preview, 0.999% or what you would like to call it even if there only were small changes.
Else suddenly all groups can say our not final version is only lacking that or that, but has everything else claiming a 1.0 version with first release tag.
A game that is not based on the final release can surly be a First Release, but with a proper tag for example Preview, 0.9 version or what you would like to call it.

Else it can get pretty funny..
Our version only lacks gfx, else it has everything... :-)

Don't forget to have fun!


Total agree.
2018-08-10 03:05
Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 961
Quote: I'll second the CSDB suggestion.. either both or none, and leaning to none as preference because;

1. First on csdb in theory would be an option too, but would mean having to reset a hell of a lot of historical flags.

2. There's a conflict now with 2 mags, in theory (if Didi reboots his mag) there are 3 with 3 potential outcomes, and future proofing there might be more at some point.

IMHO based on previous statements CSDB is a database logging releases, so using all or none in case of conflict seems the most logical indeed.


Agreed, leaning towards removal of the first release flag on CSDb completely (as this is managed outside of CSDb).
2018-08-10 03:20
Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 961
Quote: Just to say while someone’s talking about the rules being broken before... the Vandalism rules were updated following this release to define it in a way that, of course, would give Onslaught the first. If a BBS is down, they go to the backup.

What’s not clear to me though is:-
- how long does the BBS need to be down? A second? A minute? An hour? 24 hours?
- how is the BBS being down verified?

To me, just saying “you can use the fallback if a BBS is down” is just open to even more cheating... it’s not clearly defined. It’s STILL a broken rule. This stuff isn’t rocket science... choose a rule and stick to it.

Propaganda’s rules, to me, make sense. 24 hours means 24 hours, down means down, etc. This is what’s needed: hard and fast rules that don’t allow cheating.

Jazzcat claimed that groups may cheat by making BBS’s go down to their advantage... this seems very odd to me - if you can’t trust the 3 BBS’s that you list as the mains, you have the wrong BBSs. Surely you NEED to be able to trust them to be fair? If you can’t, it’s not just them being “down” that you should worry about - you should worry about traffic priority, transfer failures and all sorts of dirty tricks that could be used. Trust them 100% - or not at all.

Also, wow, if what Hedning says is true, which i’m sure it is, feeding releases to a crack group against their will is an amazing way to make sure you’re not publisher more from that developer.


Regarding BBS downtime. I think that can be discretionary. Obviously a minute or two is a bit awkward. People would just retry. But for a whole day (during business hours the case of Yoomp) then this is an obvious fallback rule. It is a race, not a waiting game. Will review this when I am looking at all the rules together with Bordeaux (Tim). The goal being that we need the rules and their gaps ironed out so that people can have fun and not be bogged down in debates. Also to correct you, they are not my rules. They are heavily based on existing rules set by Psychobilly for The Pulse magazine in 1993. They have been added onto by myself, Vengeance/Success+TRC and Taper/Triad and at times with the consensus of others.
2018-08-10 07:37
hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 1842
Wait. What? So the cracking scene and its rules should be made to fit people’s working hours? Why is that even a factor in this?
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