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Forums > CSDb Entries > Release id #218343 : E2IRA
2022-08-28 09:06
wacek

Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 501		 Release id #218343 : E2IRA

The highest level of admiration is imitation ;)
Joker guys made our day at Xenium with this one!
https://youtu.be/kl8dH7ooRyU
 
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2023-03-29 14:46
wacek

Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 501		 Quoting Oswald
... but how about coders ? oh yes, no skill should be involved here

There was always a requirement that the code should be genuine and not ripped*, but the requirement you are now trying to impose is not something that has any historical background and merit. "Fucking Horizon lamers, with their lame raytracing balls in The Last Tracktor! If anybody believes this is real, the demo should be disqualified". WHAT.

*which is actually MORE than is required from gfx and music, where instruments ripping and wiring is happening all the time, and the most admired artists are doing it. DOH.
2023-03-29 14:58
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017		 Quote: Quoting Oswald
So a picture must come with workstages, prooving that it was done out of pure skill of the pixeler himself only. No copy, no wiring, no retouching, thats lame!

This is not happening in this scene, you must be fucking joking.

Quote:
Also music copied is frowned upon

WHAT? This is also not happening, not at parties, cover compos on CSDb, again - no idea what scene you are describing, not this one.

There are pictures released with workstages all the time, there was that website "art that ISNT" collecting scene pictures, and the originals they were copied off side by side. Laughing off the copiers.

So we have moved away from mid 90s standards when copied pictures - doesnt matter how it was done until looks cool - was ok, to the standard that only original artwork counts. While on the code side we are moving away from expecting skill involved to doesnt matter how it is done ?

I didnt said its not happening, I'm talking about standards.
2023-03-29 15:07
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017		 Quote: So then, don't you think it's easier for someone to just disassemble and snatch other coders super-duper real-time code than mess around with perhaps original animation packing code? No one asks coders for "workstages" i.e. source code...

IMHO work stages are bullshit anyway.

Why would I think that ? Have you ever reverse engineered code ? Do you know what you are talking about ? Ah ok checked, you are doing graphics, and giving your opinion on something you have no idea about.
2023-03-29 15:11
4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 117		 @Oswald :
True. You’re right. I tap out.
2023-03-29 15:14
wacek

Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 501		 Quoting Oswald
There are pictures released with workstages all the time, there was that website "art that ISNT"

You cannot call it A STANDARD until the time it is a requirement when submitting works for party compos, and the fact is that the biggest C64 parties - X, Data etc - are not requiring this. So in fact, this is not a standard. On the contrary, it is more and more accepted that reference pictures are used. You cannot pretend anything else is happening. More, with the advent of AI, you will no more trace anything back to publicly available references.

We have not moved from 90s standards, if anything - we moved in the other direction.

Quote:
While on the code side we are moving away from expecting skill involved to doesnt matter how it is done ?

It used to be a standard to not reuse code in subsequent demos, so... where are we with that standard today? Did we move forward or backwards? Because I did point the reuse of code if one of the demos some years ago, do you remember the lynching that happened as a result? Not of the coder who did it, but me ;)
And again, you have personally defined what is code that requires skill (realtime), and what code does not require skill (anything that has anything to do with frames). And you are trying to impose that on others.
For me the skill is in making something new and fresh. Making the same twisters, scrollers, they are not worth more only because they are realtime, even if 90% of code to do them is available to copy from public sources. That is an example of a different viewpoint on this. The difference is I am not trying to impose my view on you as A FUCKING SCENE STANDARD.
2023-03-29 15:55
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116		 one of the best threads for a while, keep it coming
2023-03-29 16:16
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017		 Quote: Quoting Oswald
There are pictures released with workstages all the time, there was that website "art that ISNT"

You cannot call it A STANDARD until the time it is a requirement when submitting works for party compos, and the fact is that the biggest C64 parties - X, Data etc - are not requiring this. So in fact, this is not a standard. On the contrary, it is more and more accepted that reference pictures are used. You cannot pretend anything else is happening. More, with the advent of AI, you will no more trace anything back to publicly available references.

We have not moved from 90s standards, if anything - we moved in the other direction.

Quote:
While on the code side we are moving away from expecting skill involved to doesnt matter how it is done ?

It used to be a standard to not reuse code in subsequent demos, so... where are we with that standard today? Did we move forward or backwards? Because I did point the reuse of code if one of the demos some years ago, do you remember the lynching that happened as a result? Not of the coder who did it, but me ;)
And again, you have personally defined what is code that requires skill (realtime), and what code does not require skill (anything that has anything to do with frames). And you are trying to impose that on others.
For me the skill is in making something new and fresh. Making the same twisters, scrollers, they are not worth more only because they are realtime, even if 90% of code to do them is available to copy from public sources. That is an example of a different viewpoint on this. The difference is I am not trying to impose my view on you as A FUCKING SCENE STANDARD.

What should I call it then, that in the scene original artwork is rated higher? Even so much so, that pixel artists show workstages for proof. Lets call it Fumbla! :)

Compos not requiring workstages doesnt disproove this, proof is workstages are uploaded many many times, without any rule requiring to do so.


"We have not moved from 90s standards, if anything - we moved in the other direction."

Strongly disagree, in 90s copying gfxers were held in high regards, not today, see above, workstages.

Effect reuse is still lame imho.


"Making the same twisters, scrollers, they are not worth more only because they are realtime"

totally boring, please dont make them realtime or not, just stop :D

"The difference is I am not trying to impose my view on you as A FUCKING SCENE STANDARD."

I am not trying to impose it on you either, ES2RA still an awesome demo in my view, only except 9 out of 10 in my eyes TECHNICALLY (code wise) it falls down to 7 knowing about the anims.

I'm not trying to lead here an ES2RA holocaust, its just triggers me, that coding needs the biggest investment time and brain wise, and by many its viewed "doesnt matter how it is done", oh okay then lets wire and retouch pictures too, doesnt matter right? :)
2023-03-29 16:19
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017		 Quote: @Oswald :
True. You’re right. I tap out.

just for the record, reverse engineering takes often as much or more effort as coding the effect itself, some months ago I spent days figuring out how some koala stretcher works.
2023-03-29 16:23
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11116		 Quote:
totally boring, please dont make them realtime or not, just stop :D

I feel like that about the static anim+colorcycle type of effects. YAWN. No its not getting any less boring with open border and samples either :)
2023-03-29 17:49
ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1378		 fond memories of getting a standing ovation for the character animation part in Effluvium back in the day
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