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mstram
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2013
Posts: 112 |
reverb / delay techniques
** warning tracker noob ** :)
How do you do it ?
I'm studying the 'cabrinigreen' tune now.
It looks like the instrument is duplicated, with the duplicated instrument's ADSR values altered ?
Then in the pattern, the note to be "echoed" is duplicated, using the copied instrument.
If that's the basic idea, then how are the ADSR values related to the "size" of the delay, i.e. "hall / room" etc as shown in other sequencers ? |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3038 |
There are many techniques. I know of at least 3-4 variants for 1 channel and two using 2 channels. Cool question btw. I wish I had time to demostrate them, but I don't. I let someone else to elaborate ;-) |
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Magnar
Registered: Aug 2009
Posts: 60 |
The SID chip does not support native built in or vst type effects add-on such as reverb, like what you find in common DAWs such as Cubase, Fruityloop, LogicPro or Renoise etc...
But echo/delay can be simply done with lower the sustain value of a instrument. Either by making a copy of the instrument, or use an effect command in the tracker with a new sustain+release value. The time of the delay/echo is the space between your notes with the different sr-values.
Maybe Mahoney can describe a bit more about the complexibility of adding reverb effects on the SID. It is definitely not something you can use in a normal sid song player in terms of using the song in a demo with a screen full of effects. To make specific effects to the sid, such as reverb, would consume all rastertime to just make the effect happen on the sid playback.
But if you listen to Mahoneys latest crazy sid experiments, there are quite some nice things possible to do.
Myself, I just fool around in Goattracker and make what I can achieve out of that ;) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1333 |
If you want to make echo softer and closer to reverb sensation, play around with Attack in echoed sound - that's the Jeff's way ;) Echoing with lower sustain sounds more 'clicky' |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 444 |
"Fill" the "silence" or the "release part" between notes with quite plain harmonic triangle/saw etc. sustained notes, that are just so silent that the other channels stuff just about cover it.
Perhaps use simple sound so ear does not immediately catch it. Causes sort of psychoacoustic "something behind the music" effect.
Many good examples of that by various sidists. Black Lamp immedately comes to mind somehow. |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
As mentioned before in this thread. Easiest method is to either change the sustain/release and play the note after the previous (on any of the channels) or to have two channels used with one delayed slightly
Geir Tjelta i believe used the output of Channel 3 and fed this through $d418 for a reverb type effect. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 460 |
'cabrinigreen' author here. as blasphemous as it is, i'd recommend stealing pseudo delay methods from some ay/ym tunes. musicians of that platform use them a lot and even invented a few. but then again, they sure have more volume flexibility than us poor underdogs ;) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
I'm no musician but I've heard methods where they repeat the last 2 or 3 notes, instead of echoing each. sometimes this 2-3 echoed note follows a longer string of unechoed notes. sometimes the whole melody is interleaved 3 note then 3 echo, etc. |
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mstram
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2013
Posts: 112 |
Quote: 'cabrinigreen' author here. as blasphemous as it is, i'd recommend stealing pseudo delay methods from some ay/ym tunes. musicians of that platform use them a lot and even invented a few. but then again, they sure have more volume flexibility than us poor underdogs ;)
>ay/ym ??
Please translate
Some other tracker ? .. software ? |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
AY = crap soundchip
YM = FM synthesis chips - some used in arcade machines.
Other type of echo, which I used in my commodore_64.sid
Make a sound that switches between square wave and triangle wave. Trig it once and use TIE notes the rest of the time.
Which means after running the following sequence, you have to use TIE note on the first note aswell.
You can use ADSR like 0777 if you like.
I used speed 4 (4 frames per tick).
SQR TRI
D#4
C#4
A#3
D#4
A#4
A#3
F-4
A#4
A#3
F-4
F#4
A#3
F-4
F#4
C#4
F-4
It looks like a mess in the editor, but it works ;)
If the music routine you use, uses "oscillator reset" as "first wave", then your wave program should look something like you see in the following example - simply due to that osc.resetting in most routines take one frame. So one frame of the 4 per tick is "lost".
(Set pulse to square-phase (0800))
loop 41
41
41
11
11
11
11
41
jmp loop
Square waves are a lot louder than triangle waves, which is why this "trick" works.
I hope this makes sense :) |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Damn... every second note was supposed to be under "TRI" :) |
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Isildur
Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 275 |
As for 8bit shitty zx spec AY isn't so cappy:
http://youtu.be/3MNHP-hBMLI
as for 16bit machine YM is a total crap :)
http://youtu.be/sUuKK0TcKbE
Wondering why we don't have ANY good FM synth tracker for C64.
(I'm big fan of chiptunes BTW) |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
FM synthesis ought to be possible to some extend on the c64.
Didn't the AY originally only do 1-bit samples? :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:As for 8bit shitty zx spec AY isn't so cappy: http://youtu.be/3MNHP-hBMLI
thats a pure sample tune, not AY sound :)
Quote:Didn't the AY originally only do 1-bit samples? :)
no. the original speccy only has the beeper - and with that you can only play 1 bit samples :) |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
Quote: I'm no musician but I've heard methods where they repeat the last 2 or 3 notes, instead of echoing each. sometimes this 2-3 echoed note follows a longer string of unechoed notes. sometimes the whole melody is interleaved 3 note then 3 echo, etc.
Yep, used this technique loads of times, combined with 2 channel echo (when possible) and instruments with built-in echo (like in Jeff's example). |
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iLKke
Registered: May 2012
Posts: 29 |
Quoting Groepazno. the original speccy only has the beeper - and with that you can only play 1 bit samples :)
There's a lot of things people have done with the crappy speccy beeper over the years.
Check out these sound engines:
http://freestuff.grok.co.uk/beepola/help/tonegen.html |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
i |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
beeper & ay/ym is heavily underrated around here. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3038 |
Quoting DaneYep, used this technique loads of times, combined with 2 channel echo (when possible) and instruments with built-in echo (like in Jeff's example).
1. I also love to use this type of echoes using multiple notes. Very subtle.
2. For more intense 1 channel echoes I love to postpone echoed note after the played note..
like this
C
(if the sequence is looped, you can add echoed F here ;-)
D
ECHOED C (lower volume)
E
ECHOED D (lower volume)
F
ECHOED E (lower volume)
3. also stopping the long tone abruptly.. add add echo after pause sound quite cool.. I use that from time to time
P.S.: I love what Tim Follin did with speccy's "BEEPER".. Chronos tune for example.. *INSANE* |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 939 |
A reverb:
Set a short release on an instrument that has gate-on bit set.
Trigger a gate-off in your track and on the tick after the gate off command, set your release to a high value. This results in a fast lowering of volume and before the release cycle is finished you can 'reverb' the sound with the new long-lasting release cycle. Sort of. :)
C-4 01 6f8 <-set SR to F8
--- <-gateoff
64f <-set SR to 4F
You can expand this by setting a high attack value and trigger a gate-on further on.
Obviously, the speed of the track influences the outcome.
Some data:
http://www.sid.fi/sidwiki/doku.php?id=sid-knowledge |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 460 |
did you use that technique on a lead channel of 'close but no cigar' or is it the lead/arps frequency clash that creates that fantastic reverb effect? or do both contribute? |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 939 |
That's the combination of the 2 things I guess, the arps going along with the melody filling up the gaps of the melody and track command gate-off in the melody one tick before the next note.
It also helps not to use hardrestart on the melody and chords, giving them the continuous sound whereas the drums n bass are tighter controlled by hardrestart, but its not that tight, the HR ADSR is set to 00F6, so there's an extra bit of release when a new note is triggered. |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 444 |
use http://www.6581.fi/sidwiki/doku.php?id=sid-knowledge
I no longer update www.sid.fi/sidwiki. It will eventually go away. |
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theWizard
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2007
Posts: 109 |
2 notes same pitch 1 after 1 call produces a reverb or galway does it with 3 notes in quick progression ( with decreasing volume example wizball or it would eventually wash out ) , in terms of the c64 , 1 vblank then call the same note again will produce a sort of reverb well actually i wouldnt call it a reverb effect more of an early phaser , which player routine are you asking about or you asking in general? |
