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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
JCH NewPlayer 21.g4 beta
I febuary/march I decided to code a player for JCH's editor. Mostly because I was feeling like doing some tunes on the 64 again, after attending the X'2004 event. Basically I was annoyed by the tie-note syncronization problem with 20.g4 and just felt up to coding some 64 stuff again. For the past four, five months Drax has been testing the player, and given me some response as to what features to integrate into it and such. If there's any interest in trying out the player I'd release the present beta version with whatever bugs it suffers from. The player has been written from scratch and has some new features, and is roughly the same speed as the old one... So if people still use the JCH editor and find this interesing, please say so! I'd especially be interested in feedback in regards to bugs discovered and suggestions for features etc. |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
Sure, let me testdrive! |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: |
i'm somewhat interested in it.
which new features come along with that one? |
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Case
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 142 |
laxity - will you ever release your original player / packer / editor ? |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Havn't given that much thought!.. I actually found my editor on the net recently, so it's out there.. The source and packer (yeah right.. packer! hehe) is however not. But if people are interested, I see no point why not. It's not rocket science! |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
21.g4 supports almost every feature of 20.g4, except for the note off wavetab pointer. This can be set using a super command if needed!
The CPU usage is around $1f - $20 in a standard tune.. Obviously this can be a lot more if really nasty vibratos are used on all 3 channels..
21.g4 feature list:
Instrument:
- hard restart / normal restart / no retart setting
- restart pulse / filter on note on setting (can be set to restart on set instrument command only)
Super commands:
- Slide up
- Slide down
- Set instrument with alternate wavetab pointer (new)
- Vibrato
- Portamento (new - auto slide.. transpose safe!)
- Set DSR on instrument (will be kept until instrument a new instrument command is set)
- Set DSR directly (will NOT be kept on instrument)
- Set wavetab pointer directly (will NOT be stored in instrument)
- Set filter pointer or filter value (any running filter envelope will be cancelled)
Other:
Speed table of 2, 3 or 4 entries (for crack/shuffle or other beat types..)
Known bugs:
- Hard restart can fail if a value of $02 is used in the speedtable thing and notes are played as fast as possible.. There's some syncronization bug there, but it's rarely encountered - actually I've never encountered it myself..
- Restarting the tune (f1) in the editor might sometimes throw off the synronization of the speed table .. Hitting f1 again a few times usually resolves the problem! Had this bug once! |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
I don't know if you've considered it already, Laxity, but I always found the command 'change arpeggio-speed' in the arp-table very useful. In some of my own versions I'm using $7E for it since I only use $7F for looping.
I've also done some experiments with 'hard pulse' a la player 19, with the option of some instruments using the pulse-table. This was to save r-time and space but maybe it's overkill for a general player.
Also, I've had ideas about filterenvelope change-options in the arpeggio/filtertable. On 8580 this could work but on 6581 it would be clickfest. Comments?
Maybe you've already given vibrato an overhaul. If not, I've got some odd version of it that doesn't use note-table to calculate but instead just adds/subtracts x value y number of times. Very r-timeconsuming and I noted you could do weird vibrato effects with it i.e. go several octaves up/down if you wanted.
Poke me if you want to talk more about my ideas and different versions of the players. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Laxity: I would try out the editor, if you stick some labels on the numbers, so one knows what he is doing in the soundtables. :-) |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Rambones: Haha.. labels.. you gotta be kidding.. It wouldn't be fun if there wasn't some deduction involved ;) .. You're taking about the "laxity editor", right?.. Well.. It's basically a hex editor, so ... The old editor I found at: http://c64.rulez.org/onslaught/c64misc/music/Laxity_Editor_V32...
Sourcecode?.. Well.. I'll just have to find a good place to upload it! |
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aeeben
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 43 |
laxity back on c-64, excellent :) |
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Henne
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 26 |
Hi!
I'm interested in your player, too. Just finished a tune using NewPlayer 20.g4. |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
when I searched for this player didn't find it in CSDb, so why not adding it? :) (2nd theory: I am blind :D ). |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Yeah.. it's not added.. Can I just upload it to here? |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Aleksi.. ;).. It's been a while, eh?.. Btw. really cool stuff you've done on the 64 these last couple of years!.. You should've been in the scene in the old days - you could have sturred things up a bit when everybody tried to make "fast" players.. :) Good work with Polly.. She's mighty fine.. |
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Clarence
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 120 |
Laxity, good to see you back!
Just a little advert. :)
The tunes by Drax in Irrational/Chorus ( Irrational ) are already utilising the 'under-construction' Laxity palyer.
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Yeah, well.. most of the tunes he composed this year has been done with 21.g1/2/3/4.. |
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abaddon
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 28 |
one of the most annoying things in 20.g4 (apart from the tie-note bug) is the way slides are implemented. you cannot slide any arpeggiated instrument, you just get some weird noise, like the two effect-routines were trying to cancel each other out. i'm sure even most (c)1985 players did this right.
another one is the bug which occurs when setting a new note with new slide-command. the new note doesn't seem to be initialized at all.
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: Yeah.. it's not added.. Can I just upload it to here?
Yes you can. CSDb allows file uploading when you create an entry for a release :) |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
abaddon: ehrm... sliding arpeggiosounds... That's something that definately will sound crappy afterall :-)
guess the problem with sliding sounds that have some note-shifting is that you'd need different slide values for each arpeggiovalue -> messy code wasted on that.
However a little bit of vibrato on arpeggio-chords can sound ok, if you don't overdo it.
Anyways, just my opinion :-)
Laxity: You could also get your file(s) uploaded to somewhere on 6581(dot)dk, if you want. And just put some details about it on csdb, with download link. :-)
Anyways, guess you'll soon get my new editor, just need to do a few copy commands and perhaps a few more things to make it more userfriendly and finally I've gotta finish the discmenu ;-)
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
I second that.. Anyway, you can't slide arpeggios in NP21.g4 beta, and I'd rather not implement either!
I'm not sure I get what you mean with the slide bug note on thing? Maybe I never encountered it myself! |
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abaddon
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 28 |
Quote: abaddon: ehrm... sliding arpeggiosounds... That's something that definately will sound crappy afterall :-)
guess the problem with sliding sounds that have some note-shifting is that you'd need different slide values for each arpeggiovalue -> messy code wasted on that.
However a little bit of vibrato on arpeggio-chords can sound ok, if you don't overdo it.
Anyways, just my opinion :-)
Laxity: You could also get your file(s) uploaded to somewhere on 6581(dot)dk, if you want. And just put some details about it on csdb, with download link. :-)
Anyways, guess you'll soon get my new editor, just need to do a few copy commands and perhaps a few more things to make it more userfriendly and finally I've gotta finish the discmenu ;-)
i don't understand the need for different slidevalue.
you need one extra 16-bit variable to hold the current value of slide which then will be added to the "real" frequency of the note, after it has been set by arpeggio, vibrato or whatever.
you probably knew this already, which means i somehow missed your point
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
That's because the delta frequency isn't a constant value. The frequency doubles per. octave.. Let's say C-1 is 100, C-2 would be 200, C-3 400 and so forth.. Therefore you can't just apply the slide value to all notes and expect the arpeggio to remain in key... Only the base note will remain in key as expected. |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
Jeff: Don't forget to send your editor to me when it's (finally) finished ;) |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Oh shit.. Didn't notice your hosting offer there, Jeff.. Until now that is!.. Will make a zip with the beta and docs tomorrow and mail it to you, than I'll create the entry as soon as you put it on: whattheheck(dot)spam.sux.badly.and.all.that.crap.dk :) |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Laxity: good good, do so ;-)
Zyron: yep :-)
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
I just wanted to check out how the "add release" thing worked, and as I was easy as hell to actually upload, I decided to just do it right away.. I also mailed it to Søren, so there'll be an alternative if this one fails.
So.. "JCH NewPlayer 21.g4 Beta" has been added to releases and can be downloaded now. Please be so kind and comment all you like.. good AND bad, all is fine to hear.
I put a new JCH packer in the zip file as well, even though the old one works too. This packer packs the sequences a little better, as JCH forgot to pack the duration and tie note stuff together in his old one. BUT there's a bug in it (yeah.. well! Sorry), seems that I won't pack songs with more than $40 sequences.. So.. Need to fix that!..
I would be very interested in getting work tunes that will not pack using the packer, and worktunes that somehow crashes the player or otherwise don't work as they should!
There're a few work tunes in there, that are actually done with NP21.G3, but show most of the new features in use!
Have fun!.. And let me hear your thoughts, please! :) |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: I just wanted to check out how the "add release" thing worked, and as I was easy as hell to actually upload, I decided to just do it right away.. I also mailed it to Søren, so there'll be an alternative if this one fails.
So.. "JCH NewPlayer 21.g4 Beta" has been added to releases and can be downloaded now. Please be so kind and comment all you like.. good AND bad, all is fine to hear.
I put a new JCH packer in the zip file as well, even though the old one works too. This packer packs the sequences a little better, as JCH forgot to pack the duration and tie note stuff together in his old one. BUT there's a bug in it (yeah.. well! Sorry), seems that I won't pack songs with more than $40 sequences.. So.. Need to fix that!..
I would be very interested in getting work tunes that will not pack using the packer, and worktunes that somehow crashes the player or otherwise don't work as they should!
There're a few work tunes in there, that are actually done with NP21.G3, but show most of the new features in use!
Have fun!.. And let me hear your thoughts, please! :)
Great! Eventhough I am no composer, I would like to thank you for adding it to CSDb! :) |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
No sweat.. For those just curious for the test tunes, they can be loaded and sys 3840 to run! |
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Fanta
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 26 |
hi there,
laxity was so kind to send me the player some days ago, before the "officially" release. well, i am also trying out jeffs editor at the moment as this will be my new "soundsystem" :) but 21.g4 is VERY good, too. features like portamento, DSR/Filter direct commands, nice options for soft/hard restart and a much better (!) vibrato is just what jch users have dreamed of. i will never use 20.g4 again, no need to say more. try it out!
btw, it's a pleasure to see some activity from laxity again. that's compareable if ABBA would return with their beautiful and unforgotten melodies. GREAT! :D
god saves the petersen. |
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Fanta
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 26 |
last note: the live play feature is not working. that's the only big disadvantage and will hopefully be solved in the future. |
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DRAX
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 225 |
Hey Lax... what's going on? Releasing a version 21.g4 before letting me test it!!! ;) Well, just curious what is new compared with the 21.g3. It's a great player you have managed to put together ... the tie-note fix, the hard/soft restart switch, the cut-off function, the portamento, the filter change in the sequence and more. Really nice work...
Nice work tunes :D
Thomas
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: |
i really really miss the f2/live play option too, could you implent that in a next version? jamming is indispensable for me =) |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Yeah.. I'll have to check out how JCH made that thing work though, and that's rather boring :) .. It's on the top of the list, I promise! |
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
Well... what can I say? Some random JCH v20.g4 user here, I'll be sure to test out v21.g4 asap. I never use live play, mainly because I set speed to 0 (halfspeeds) in v20.g4, so the live play goes crazy anyway.
Of course, Jeff's editor will probably also be my soundsystem :), but that won't stop me from using this while awaiting Jeff's final version.
It's also great to see two super composers from the past (yeah you too DRAX) active again. Simply brilliant! =) Might a scrub like me ask what brought you back (temporarily or not)? SID nostalgia? |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Well.. I think what triggered it was my trip to the X2004 last year, which - even though I was hung over most of one of the two days (DOH!), and puked like a 14 year old - motivated me to do some 64'ing again.. Also coding is a lot easier now, as I'm somewhat more expirienced, and have a genuine interest in it. I didn't really back then.. ;) .. Still coding some 64, and have a project going on that, if finished, will hopefully prove interesting to some in this forum... But no promises yet! |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Eh.. speed 0 doesn't affect live play, by the way.. I think you're talking about the SHIFT-B thing, where the sequences follow the play cursor.. That one goes crap when speeds are below 2, but the F2 function for previewing sounds etc. doesn't work with 21.b4.. I hope to fix it in the near future though! |
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
Yeah, I'm sorry - I realised the mix-up a few minutes ago and wanted to correct my post, but you beat me to it :). The F2 thing is something which I do use, but I guess you can circumvent it for now by using a test sequence and play those a few times until the it sounds okay, then copy it over to the actual sequence you were planning to use. Or something like that.
And I can understand your newfound motivation through X2004 - I went to X2001 and was really fueled by talking to guys like GRG, Reyn, Graham, WVL, Krill, my groupmates, etc. I so wanted to be at X2004 since the lineup of people was so brilliant (you were one of the "to meet" guys :), but I got stuck between leaving my old job at Germany and moving to university in Belgium. Just didn't have the time - major s*ckage. Oh well, maybe somewhere in the future, huh? :) |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Status report:
21.g4 final release is about ready, with the F2 sound preview thing working correctly and a few bugs fixed. If there's anybody who have comments or have found bugs that I haven't, this is the time to say the word. Final will be uploaded shortly, if noone replies with bugs or the like. |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: |
sweet, looking forward to it.
i noticed a random bug (nothing that causes a hazard tho) - sometimes the follow-play option (shift+b) acts a little funky when the tune reached its end and starts all over. one of the tracks seems to lag by a few frames, thus causing a slight phase by playing a little slower than the remaining 2 tracks and sometimes the synch is totally off.
is that similar to what you mentioned in your buglist concering the synchronisation of the speed table?
i'm not sure how this can be reproduced, it mostly happened by random here. =) |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Hmm.. Wierd.. I think it's a different bug, but related in the sence that it has something to do with the player initialization being executed outside the IRQ, while the player update is inside the IRQ.. This can give syncronization problems, and does so - apparently with the crtl+B thing, and sometimes when you just press.. is it f1(??) to restart the tune in the editor... Anyway, there's a remedy for that, and I'll apply it before releasing the final! Thanks for responding! |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: |
one thing just popped up here .. whenever i do some changes in the arpeggio-table, like putting more frames in the sound via shift+ins, the last bit of the following instrument in the instrument table changes, causing a mess in almost all the sounds.
could you fix that too? in 20.g4, the instrument table automatically updated whenever any changes in the arp-table have been done =) |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1762 |
Pardon me for asking a stupid question, but which version of the JCH Editor should I use the player with?
There are loads of hacked up (or down?) versions. |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
I would say the latest one by JCH.. Get it from http://www.vibrants.dk somewhere! I've not tested it with any hacked versions of the editor! |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: |
i just found out that np-pack 5.4b comes along with the same bug(?) like the old packer when it comes to superslidekkomandotable-SR-changes.
the following thing ends up being inaudible and almost eaten up by the packer when i have an instrument setting like this:
00 66 80 f3 04 00 00 00
the supercommand for another instance of this instrument goes like this:
90 19
could it be that what the packer gets out is actually the right result and the sr sounds louder than it should in the editor? or does that happen because of the hardrestart or even the filter? i'm sadly technically challenged when it comes to things like that, but i noticed that the same thing occurs in older versions of the packer; i think i only managed to get around this problem with wisdom's packer for 20.g4 tunes, or doing a different instrument with the settings that i put in the supercommands. |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: one thing just popped up here .. whenever i do some changes in the arpeggio-table, like putting more frames in the sound via shift+ins, the last bit of the following instrument in the instrument table changes, causing a mess in almost all the sounds.
could you fix that too? in 20.g4, the instrument table automatically updated whenever any changes in the arp-table have been done =)
What?.. Never had any problems with that!.. Which editor version are you using? |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: i just found out that np-pack 5.4b comes along with the same bug(?) like the old packer when it comes to superslidekkomandotable-SR-changes.
the following thing ends up being inaudible and almost eaten up by the packer when i have an instrument setting like this:
00 66 80 f3 04 00 00 00
the supercommand for another instance of this instrument goes like this:
90 19
could it be that what the packer gets out is actually the right result and the sr sounds louder than it should in the editor? or does that happen because of the hardrestart or even the filter? i'm sadly technically challenged when it comes to things like that, but i noticed that the same thing occurs in older versions of the packer; i think i only managed to get around this problem with wisdom's packer for 20.g4 tunes, or doing a different instrument with the settings that i put in the supercommands.
I'll have to test this.. Could you mail me a work tune where this thing shows up? |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
I just tried to test this 90 super command bug, but I can't reproduce it!.. I'm curious as to if you're setting the "kick repeated instruments" option in the pack to "yes" (this is default btw.).. This can be the reason for your problem, as super command 90 remains set until next instrument event. If repeated instruments are kicked, the packed tune will be inconsistant to the unpacked one, as some of them are suddenly missing... Anyway, please send me your workfiles if this is not the case! |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: |
yeah, i always kick the repeated instruments .. sounds reasonable, i will try re-packing again when i'm home tonight. would be fun if it works, that could have spared me a few grey hairs the previous years too. =) |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: yeah, i always kick the repeated instruments .. sounds reasonable, i will try re-packing again when i'm home tonight. would be fun if it works, that could have spared me a few grey hairs the previous years too. =)
hehe... It even says so in the docs for 20.g4 somewhere I think;) |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: one thing just popped up here .. whenever i do some changes in the arpeggio-table, like putting more frames in the sound via shift+ins, the last bit of the following instrument in the instrument table changes, causing a mess in almost all the sounds.
could you fix that too? in 20.g4, the instrument table automatically updated whenever any changes in the arp-table have been done =)
Just checked this problem, and I can't seem to reproduce.. All is fine and dandy here... ?? |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Uploaded the final. Changes since beta:
- Fixed a bug in the vibrato feel, that caused an overflow and made the note go out of tune..
- Fixed the syncroniztion (initialization) bug.
- Super command $Dx $yy set filter/pulse was wrongly documented in Beta text file!.
- Super command $Dx $yy now also accepts a x=2 value where yy will be set as the active
pulse program for the current channel
- F2 preview has been fixed to work. Still has a bug, the last note event will repeast every
two or three seconds if no input was registered by the player. This is a bit annoying, but
the live play feature works, so you can preview your instruments etc. Pressing F2 in the editor
will not clear the sid channels, so it's a good idea to stop the currently playing song (F3) before
pressing F2.
- A bug in the super command $dx has been fixed, that would cause the tempo to change if the $xx value
of the command was set to $f0 or above!
Sorry for the massive delay... work work work |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Does anyone can write a nice (beginner) tutorial for it? |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: |
laxity, great, gotta check it out on the weekend; having sound-preview enabled via f2 now is really awesome =) |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: |
Quote: Just checked this problem, and I can't seem to reproduce.. All is fine and dandy here... ??
that problem is still there .. however, it doesn't cause a mess in the actual instrument setup, it's just a tad confusing. =) |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Which version of the JCH editor are you using?.. All works fine here, and I use 3.04 - as can be downloaded from www.vibrants.dk |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: |
i use 3.04 as well .. no idea what i'm doing wrong =) |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Hmm.. Ok.. I still can reproduce!.. What I did, was load a work tune from the np21 disk, insert a couple of rows in the wavetable. As a result all wave table pointers in the instruments were updated properly!.. What wasn't updated properly, were the commands that pointed to a wavetable index. (4x yy - select instrument x using wavetable point yy).. There's no way I can update these pointers, unless I want to hack the editor - and I really don't want to do that!.. Is that the problem you've come across? |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: |
seems like i did a thing i used to do in the older np's actually, filling the last 2 values with the waveform-indexes.
a healthy mix of fanta and rtfm enlighted me on that part now, so all is good. :D |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
That explains why ;) |
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Fanta
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 26 |
dalezy you are always welcome.
daddy |
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Sidder
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 56 |
Laxity,
In 20.G4 there were two ways to finish the tune:
1. FFFF - tune loops from beginning
2. FEFF - tune stops
Does it work correctly in your 21.G4? |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Actually no.. Stop (to my surprise) isn't implemented. If you need it, I'll implemented it now! |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Fixed it.. I've released the player here: JCH NewPlayer 21.g5 .. It's now 21.g5 and includes the stop feature ($feXX). Furthermore I fixed the key on / off bug when previewing sounds ("live play" thing in the JCH editor).. |
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Sidder
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 56 |
Thanks! BTW: What will happen if I set SP in other place than beginning? If tune ends on $FFFF - will player start playing tune from SP or from beginning?
(Check Shogoon's zak: http://www.c64.org/HVSC/VARIOUS/S-Z/Shogoon/Altered_States_Tune.. - it's neverending tune, but it isn't repeated from beginnig). |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Hmm.. I think it works as expected. The tune ought to loop from the sp mark position, as this is handled at packing time. |
