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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 127 |
Message for 4agentE
Thanks a lot for derailing the thread. I was just writing you a message that you should start behaving. You can be as autistic you want (your own words) but please stop acting like this is a matter of life and death.
I would have been happy to continue the discussion about the actual real timelines of things instead of that bullshit.
Also CountZero, how about a warning first? |
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deetsay
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 42 |
Quoting KrillThe vast majority of early demos undeniably shares a lot of style with crack intros, but that wouldn't contradict either interpretation, imho, of the demo scene springing from cracking scene
It was a "demo" by Spreadpoint. It's literally perfectly showing the demo scene springing from the cracking scene.
Quoting Krillvs both of them emerging at the same time, with a common proto-scene ancestor.
Let's agree on this, that there was a "proto-scene" from which the demo scene and cracking scene both split out. Consider all the culture, stylistic and technical evolution until that point shared. Doesn't really matter if it happened in 1985 or later. Now in the "proto-scene" before the emergence, how significant, numerous, all-encompassing and impressive were crack intros? And how significant was "Piccolo Mouso" in comparison? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11290 |
Crack intros were irrelevant on c-net, it was all about pictures, music, and sometimes scrollers. |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 127 |
Was CompuNet popular outside of the UK? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11290 |
How does that matter?
It was popular enough for me to get c-net stuff on tapes in germany, 85ish. with zero contact to "swappers" or "scene". |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 127 |
I think it matters! :D The world was a lot slowly connected back then. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11290 |
Regarding demoscene, it certainly had a much bigger impact than any other early network :) |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 178 |
Look Mankeli, I’m sure you can read (although one would be pardoned to wonder judging by you misspelling my handle) as can everybody else around here. If you re-read your thread in chronological order, it’s dead obvious that the one who derailed your subject was Krill. He turned your subject into his crusade against the premise that demoscene emanated from crackerscene. Which was NOT your subject as I recall. He turned your thread into continuation of his personal crusade he leads in other places. I was responding to him. Yet, you’re for some bizarre reason calling me out. Go over it all again if you have trouble remembering, see where it got sidetracked. Apology is welcome. |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 127 |
Maybe we can discuss about thread post timelines on another thread? Let's not here. I thought the crackerscene / demoscene origin discussion was topical atleast, atleast until it was just arguing. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11290 |
Quote:his personal crusade he leads in other places
please elaborate |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 178 |
I was totally oblivious of CompuNet at the time. That’s the reason swapping was my only source of demos along with the cracks. When I heard about CompuNet later it seemed like science fiction to me. At the time I thought the only use for modems was to dial US warez BBSs using stolen calling card numbers. So if indeed there was a whole demoscene outside mailswapping scene active on CompuNet, I never knew.
P.S. Mankeli, I wish you named this thread differently. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 178 |
Quote:please elaborate
Not here. I (seem to) have done enough derailing. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940 |
Quoting chatGPZIt was popular enough for me to get c-net stuff on tapes in germany, 85ish. with zero contact to "swappers" or "scene". Interesting! How did you get those tapes? Schoolyard? Kiosk? "Public domain" mailorder? =) |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 127 |
Yeah CompuNet indeed feels like science fiction. :D And sorry, I hope the mods can rename the thread.
It also kinda follows the trend that lots of these "new ideas" were invented a lot earlier but the other infrastructure around (technical and social) them was not there yet. Was CompuNet focused on computer arts or was it more business oriented? |
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macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 253 |
Can this need of defining something organically grown out of intellectual creativity where individuals spur social/dialectical play please become more civil. There is not one answer (apart from the one presented by Hedning - whom forgot to mention Folke Filbyter) and believing so is as naïve as when people of jurisprudence try to use their incommensurable narrative upon e.g. the natural sciences. Live and let live. Phree pints at the Boar. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 178 |
@Mankeli
Indeed. Like Lucasfilm Games’ Habitat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitat_(video_game)
I only heard about that like in 2000 or something.
P.S. I’m obviously too stupid to make this upper link work. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5074 |
" I wonder if the C64 demoscene did start by trying to imitate stuff seen on Amiga?"
why does the demoscene has to start by copying from the cracking or the amiga scene ? so other scenes can invent things on their own, but god forbid the c64 demoscene could do it ? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11290 |
Quote:How did you get those tapes? Schoolyard?
Typical schoolyard "piracy", no direct scene connection. (I only learned some years later that Florasoft went to the same school as i did)
Quote:Was CompuNet focused on computer arts or was it more business oriented?
It was kind of like the early internet - it was designed so users can create their own "pages" (like websites) where they can publish their own content. And many used it to post samples of their work (aka demos) in order to get some attention from potential publishers/contractors. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940 |
Quoting deetsayIt was a "demo" by Spreadpoint. It's literally perfectly showing the demo scene springing from the cracking scene. Sorry, which demo/"demo" are you referring to? |
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deetsay
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 42 |
Quoting KrillSorry, which demo/"demo" are you referring to?
The one that the whole original thread was about, of course: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mg96m76o7JA |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940 |
Quoting deetsayThe one that the whole original thread was about, of course: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mg96m76o7JA Okay, July 1987, a tad late.
Can you elaborate on how it's "literally perfectly showing the demo scene springing from the cracking scene"?
Which, i think, would directly contradict the notion of both scenes springing from a common ancestor proto-scene - and that would make the discussion more than just an argument about semantics, as mankeli put it.
As for Piccolo Mouso, i'm pretty sure that a few more demos existed in the early days, many of them lost. And i'm rather sure that an argument based on quantities rather than qualities almost inevitably leads to the old conclusion i'm doubting. |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1762 |
Yeah, mid 1987 is more like the emergence of the second “generation” demo/intro coders. |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 127 |
Quote: Yeah, mid 1987 is more like the emergence of the second “generation” demo/intro coders.
Interesting! Can you elaborate on that? Who were the first "generation" in your view? |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1762 |
Quote: Interesting! Can you elaborate on that? Who were the first "generation" in your view?
From the top of my head, groups/people like Omega Man/TCS, Ratt/Crowther, Flash/FCG, 1001 Crew, Thunderbolt Cracking Crew, YIP/Pure-Byte, Sodan/FC, The Judges perhaps. Many of those mentioned started dropping off around that time, some switched to Amiga, some turned to game coding. In contrast a lot of new groups and individuals started releasing stuff, probably inspired taking this up by earlier stuff.
I apologize if I missed someone here. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11290 |
Look in the greetings of that Amiga demo :) |
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deetsay
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 42 |
Quoting mankeliI hope the mods can rename the thread.
"Message for 4gentE"
Quoting chatGPZIt was kind of like the early internet - it was designed so users can create their own "pages" (like websites) where they can publish their own content. And many used it to post samples of their work (aka demos) in order to get some attention from potential publishers/contractors
That's actually very cool! Is that stuff generally in csdb (or.. internet archive?) now or has it been lost?
And, sorry, but publishing work (aka demos) to get the attention of publishers... I know some of that was going on also in the mail swapping scene, But. Aren't scene demos more like self-publishing to gain notoriety for your pseudonymous group? (just like crack intros)
Quoting KrillOkay, July 1987, a tad late.
Can you elaborate on how it's "literally perfectly showing the demo scene springing from the cracking scene"?
Literally literally. Spreadpoint was into cracking (and, I assume, spreading). A part of that scene, if you will. But they also made demos. Which doesn't "prove" anything in isolation, but I'm claiming that this was actually very typical, even earlier, and in fact how the demo scene was born.
While also growing organically from other corners of the computer universe - not that everyone was crackers, or "from that scene". It was just significant enough that the culture remained almost the same, which is why it shouldn't really be too debatable to make the rough generalization that the demo scene sprang from the cracking scene.
Quoting KrillAs for Piccolo Mouso, i'm pretty sure that a few more demos existed in the early days, many of them lost. And i'm rather sure that an argument based on quantities rather than qualities almost inevitably leads to the old conclusion i'm doubting.
Quantity isn't everything, but of course it matters when you're claiming there was a whole parallel culture brewing. And sure, even a single demo could have started the demo scene, but if that was the case, I don't think we would have been so fast to lose it and forget what it was.
Quoting tlrOmega Man/TCS, Ratt/Crowther, Flash/FCG, 1001 Crew, Thunderbolt Cracking Crew, YIP/Pure-Byte, Sodan/FC, The Judges
6/8 have also cracks on their CSDB resume (also the founder of The Judges had one, but I let that slide, it was 40 years ago after all). I also nominate FCS/FIG and Kasper/(B). |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940 |
Quoting deetsaySpreadpoint was into cracking (and, I assume, spreading). A part of that scene, if you will. But they also made demos. Which doesn't "prove" anything in isolation, but I'm claiming that this was actually very typical, even earlier, and in fact how the demo scene was born.
While also growing organically from other corners of the computer universe - not that everyone was crackers, or "from that scene". It was just significant enough that the culture remained almost the same, which is why it shouldn't really be too debatable to make the rough generalization that the demo scene sprang from the cracking scene. I am with you until the last comma in this quote. Because if everybody did a bit of everything, or maybe just one and not the other, but still within the same "cosmos", there is no chronological order as implied by "the demo scene sprang from the cracking scene".
Quoting KrillQuantity isn't everything, but of course it matters when you're claiming there was a whole parallel culture brewing. I never claimed anything about a parallel culture, only a common ancestry - and that by this magical point in time when there was a distinct "cracking scene", there was also a distinct "demo scene" (and vice versa). |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1878 |
Quoting KrillAs for Piccolo Mouso, i'm pretty sure that a few more demos existed in the early days, many of them lost. And i'm rather sure that an argument based on quantities rather than qualities almost inevitably leads to the old conclusion i'm doubting.
DUDES. I didn't create Piccolo to read about it nowadays - we were young and motivated.
$SCENE didnt manage to create database or additions here of which effect was first done whereever so far. WHY even TRY to discuss it on such a generic level?
$SCENE (for us) is a bunch of people doing whatever they like, link, code/compose/compost and spread - how can all of you people cry for diversity nowadays but also THINK of splitting $SCENE parts?
Next: graphicians and musicians who dont want their "art" being used on cracking intro!
So, go on - nothing to see or even talk about here...
/cz (who had enough of this on the RSS feed today!) |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 668 |
Pretty sure the "scenes" if you can even call them that, had crossover, were both going on in parallel and you forget the the third "scene" which was game programming. Now there is evidence that's pretty easy to nail down with the third one as things were released commercially, and demonstrating your talent to get a job at a software house is likely where the word demo came from. Or perhaps demos of games you made, to get the lucrative deal with mastertronic or ocean in the UK.
I wish TMR was here... as a user of compunet he could fill in some gaps, but sadly he is not.
People were making pictures with doodle and stuff very early on, I remember local boards that were quite old (running on a PET) that had downloads of such things. So there was user groups and stuff too where people were learning about the c64 and some of course began to code and make art.
Everything was probably happening all at once.
Intros are more remembered because wares spread far and wide a lot more than passive demos, because people bought a c64 to play games or do work of some sort and not to make demos, so I think it's probably correct to think demo scene came out of games, both coding scene and cracking scene. It was not some entirely different entity that is pure and just as much as Krill would like that to be the case. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940 |
Quoting FungusIt was not some entirely different entity that is pure and just as much as Krill would like that to be the case. Really, i never said such a thing. How can i make it any clearer that my main gripe is the "cracks first, then demos" (on a scene level, not individually) thing here, and not some weirdo alt-history "demos were delivered to us by the gods" thing? :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5074 |
"demos were delivered to us by the gods"
good title for a demo :) |
