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trident
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 91 |
the first examples of rasterbars on the c64 and the amiga
here's an idea: could we collectively try to find the first example of a rasterbar in a c64 demo?
this idea came from a now-closed forum thread that brought up an interesting question:
* did rasterbars originate on the amiga?
this hypothesis is based on the idea that the amiga's copper makes it easy to produce rasterbar-like effects.
i figured we might want to dig deeper into this question. my personal understanding was that rasterbars started on the c64, but this is only because i myself started on the c64 and haven't really been active on any other platform. so maybe i've been wrong all along, and rasterbars started on the amiga?
so let's try to find the earliest instances of rasterbar effects that we can find!
here's is what i did: i did an advanced search on csdb for c64 demos released between 1982 and end of 1985. this did not turn up much - it seems like there weren't that many c64 demos released this early.
there are plenty of c64 crack intros on csdb from this time though. but not that many that seems to show rasterbars. but here are a few that i found:
* Intro 6 (csdb release date 1985)
* Intro VII (csdb release date 1985)
* Intro VIII (csdb release date 1985)
* Danish Elite Intro (csdb release date 1985) <--- pretty lame rasterbar, but close enough
and then there are some early games that used rasterbar-like effects. the one i remember myself from back then is alleykat by andrew braybook, which was seems like it was released mid 1986. video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV-E_gnzonw&ab_channel=MontyMol.. where we can see rasterbars behind the text in its intro.
the amiga was released in mid 1985, so those intros and games were released after the amiga hardware was available. but that doesn't necessarily mean that copper bars were done already.
does anyone have any more examples? and could anyone find examples of early amiga demos that display rasterbars/copperbars? |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940 |
Does this one Psytron from 1984 count as "rasterbar"?
Background+border colours are changed 3 times a videoframe, at least :) |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 127 |
Raster effects themselves have been around longer, I mean the Atari 2600 was released in 1977. And of course any scanout video hardware is doing "raster effects" in a broad sense too, so maybe "cpu running in sync with video to manipulate video hardware in a consistent manner" is required atleast.
Wouldn't say that the Psytron is rasterbar in a demoscene sense atleast. |
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Maxlide
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 31 |
The game Party Quiz +HFDMJ from 1984 has got animated rasterbars in the logo.
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1762 |
Dropzone is pretty old. |
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trident
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 91 |
yeah, it is probably a good idea to define the concept rasterbar a little more stringently.
i'd suggest something along the lines of "a set of colors with increasing luminance, followed by decreasing luminance". with this definition, we would rule out the simple raster-style effects of the "inc $d020" kind.
and it certainly makes sense that this type of effect originated on the amiga, where i presume it is easy to change the luminance to create rasterbar-like effects. on the c64, this requires careful placement of the 16 colors, which is one more step of complexity. so it makes sense that someone started doing it on the amiga, because it was easy, then people who saw it copied it to the c64, but had to choose the colors wisely to do so.
@tlr: nice find with dropzone! it appears to be published in 1985. and here we see the raster color effect: https://youtu.be/F-L5pDlCOHg?si=a-uPYQutUEE7NLRJ&t=5 |
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Trurl
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 61 |
Pretty early example here too: https://gb64.com/game.php?id=6666 |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1762 |
Might as well have originated from the various 8-bit Atari platforms that preceded the c64, or arcade games. I don’t think the Amiga was the major inspiration here. Not for me anyway. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940 |
Quoting tlrMight as well have originated from the various 8-bit Atari platforms that preceded the c64, or arcade games. I don’t think the Amiga was the major inspiration here. Not for me anyway. Yes, i was just trying to find an early Atari 400 demo with rasterbars. Also pretty easy on that platform compared to C-64, and it precedes the C-64 by a few years. |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1762 |
Quote: Quoting tlrMight as well have originated from the various 8-bit Atari platforms that preceded the c64, or arcade games. I don’t think the Amiga was the major inspiration here. Not for me anyway. Yes, i was just trying to find an early Atari 400 demo with rasterbars. Also pretty easy on that platform compared to C-64, and it precedes the C-64 by a few years.
Isn’t there a raster bars startup logo on the 2600? Never had one of those myself. |
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trident
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 91 |
did a quick look around at pouet.net for early examples of amiga demos with rasterbars, but didn't find much there either. the first amiga demos / intros seem to start showing up in 1986. here are the ones i found:
* https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=6553 (december 1986)
* https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=55456 (1986)
* https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=55451 (1986)
* https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=55449 (1986)
* https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=18938 (1986)
with this, i am definitely inclined to your position @tlr, that rasterbars most likely started not on the amiga, but elsewhere such as arcade games. it is pretty easy to find arcade games with rasterbar-like color effects. quick find here, super hang on by sega from 1987, with rasterbars in the sega logo and rasterbar-like colors in the main logo: https://youtu.be/VtP_3ENHFVY?si=0p0wgCm2wnEc1HTM |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1762 |
There were a lot of stuff by the likes of Ratt/Crowther, e.g Ratt Demo IV, and Omega Man/TCS, e.g Omega Demo 3. These were an inspiration to me at the time. |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 127 |
That Dropzone has definitely captured the Eugene Jarvis Aesthethic! Also the Robotron 2084 has pretty rasterbar-ey effects in it. |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 443 |
1000: inc $d020
1003: jmp $1000
sys 4096
anyone? |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4694 |
Yeah. I came here to point out the Atari 2600, but it has already been pointed out I see.
Forget about the Amiga.
Here's Adventures of Tron (1982) from M-Network, for example.
But sure.. it does not answer the question in question. :P "the first example of a rasterbar in a c64 demo". Looking forward to some more answers. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4694 |
I just bounced into this, January 1986: The Yak Society Intro 2.
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 178 |
I don’t know if this qualifies:
The Dynamic Duo Intro
1985. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2142 |
Quoting trident...
* did rasterbars originate on the amiga?
Certainly not, though it's offtopic to mention (as only C= was asked for by trident) that Atari 800 was very suitable for doing rasters due to that pallette of 256 colors concept...
dates from 1983
Here's a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMmBktfP3jQ
One of the few which always looked way cooler on Atari than on C=64 imho.
But even on C64 there was 'some' raster approach in the sequel from early 1984 Revenge of the Mutant Camels but only in the title screen iirc |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4694 |
Nova Intro from 1985 is pretty early for C64, yes? At least as a scene release?
 .
Also Daniel Botz mentions it in "Kunst, Code und Maschine. Die Ästhetik der Computer-Demoszene" (2011) p 59. |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 668 |
Juice! from Tronix also had raster bars on the title screen and is from 1983. |
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Ziaxx
Registered: Oct 2020
Posts: 18 |
I was thinking it'd be mentioned at the Recollection of World Firsts and Records site, but surprisingly they had no info of the first raster bars. |
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trident
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 91 |
ok so this is what we have so far:
* hedning found an atari 2600 game from 1982 with rasterbars
* fungus found juice! for the atari 800 from 1983, with rasterbars: https://youtu.be/7oNYUm_oNXk?si=GFzXKuxl-ATu5qVL&t=15
* theryk found attack of the mutant camels for the atari 800, also from 1983, with rasterbars: https://youtu.be/tMmBktfP3jQ?si=bYJcKVkn7JYrE8CI&t=1
this, and the lack of early amiga demos with rasterbars, would refute the hypothesis that rasterbars originated on the amiga.
the earliest rasterbar on the c64 is still an open question though. the feinbein intros linked in the first post are from 1985 and have, in my opinion, the most rasterbar-like rasterbars of raster effects we've found from 1985. they could be misdated though. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4694 |
Quote: ok so this is what we have so far:
* hedning found an atari 2600 game from 1982 with rasterbars
* fungus found juice! for the atari 800 from 1983, with rasterbars: https://youtu.be/7oNYUm_oNXk?si=GFzXKuxl-ATu5qVL&t=15
* theryk found attack of the mutant camels for the atari 800, also from 1983, with rasterbars: https://youtu.be/tMmBktfP3jQ?si=bYJcKVkn7JYrE8CI&t=1
this, and the lack of early amiga demos with rasterbars, would refute the hypothesis that rasterbars originated on the amiga.
the earliest rasterbar on the c64 is still an open question though. the feinbein intros linked in the first post are from 1985 and have, in my opinion, the most rasterbar-like rasterbars of raster effects we've found from 1985. they could be misdated though.
Oh. The Amiga boiz would hate having been beaten by Atari. Better find another platform that is earlier. ;) |
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insane
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 10 |
Why though? The Amiga is nothing more than a 16bit Atari XL ;) |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4694 |
Here's a video of the mentioned Adventures of Tron (1982) from M-Network... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCPrp4KASGY
And: here's the 1977 Air-Sea Battle (atari 2600) with full screen rasterbars. They might qualify?  . |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 668 |
Juice! was also released for the commodore 64 in 1983.
Looking through old games, Skramble has raster bars in the logo as well. This was also released on c-64 in 1983. |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 265 |
All graphics on the Atari 2600 is a kind of rasterbar effect. You had to change graphic and sprite data each line to have it resemble something that can be called graphic. It's not the trick, it is how the thing was designed.
The idea that rasterbars originated on Amiga is so ridiculous i'm surprised that you followed that trolling at all.
But it's interesting where rasterbars were first used on c64. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 178 |
@Jetboy
Yes, they had to "race the beam".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racing_the_Beam |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 127 |
@Jetboy Well, atleast in the original thread I was wondering about the rasterbars, sprite multiplexers and raster based effects in general and if they became part of the demoscene or "protoscene" effect screens after they were done on Amiga. Of course there were earlier examples of them too.
But I think the hypothesis is now proven to be false, and there has been so many different forums and scenes affecting each other, that such clear generalization can't be made atleast. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940 |
Seems nigh-impossible to find anything qualifying as rasterbars released pre-1985. The splits are just too far apart.
While searching, i stumbled over some rather impressive very old demos, however:
Holyhalter 1 (through 5)
Der Schnelle Hut
Four Seasons
Graphic Arts |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 265 |
How about this?
Skyline Software Systems presents Graphics (1984) earlier than amiga got released, much earlier than Amiga got into the masses. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940 |
Quoting Jetboy Skyline Software Systems presents Graphics (1984) earlier than amiga got released, much earlier than Amiga got into the masses. Nice find! Code is simple and elegant: .C:1000 78 SEI
.C:1001 AE 12 D0 LDX $D012
.C:1004 BD 00 11 LDA $1100,X
.C:1007 EC 12 D0 CPX $D012
.C:100a F0 FB BEQ $1007
.C:100c 8D 20 D0 STA $D020
.C:100f 4C 01 10 JMP $1001 |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 265 |
Not usual rasterbars, but still nice:
ABC Crackings Raster Intro 1984 |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3170 |
Quote: How about this?
Skyline Software Systems presents Graphics (1984) earlier than amiga got released, much earlier than Amiga got into the masses.
Very clever early example.
Anyway changed release type from Crack Intro to Onefile demo |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 127 |
Quote: How about this?
Skyline Software Systems presents Graphics (1984) earlier than amiga got released, much earlier than Amiga got into the masses.
Rastercolors and raster effect but not rasterbars imo š¤ |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940 |
Quoting mankeliRastercolors and raster effect but not rasterbars imo š¤ Yes, it's all somewhat arbitrary. |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 727 |
omg aren't we drifting away here.. How could we possibly define a rasterbar other than the ability to change color each line. If this ability is used to picture a bar, a pipe or a rainbow must be totally irrelevant. Comprendamos? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11290 |
please elaborate |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 727 |
The earlier mentioned demo Quote:Skyline Software Systems presents Graphics clearly uses a code that enables changing (border)color each line, as also seen in the code example. Isn't that exactly what is asked for in this thread? Why then start discussing what does and does not qualify as a "rasterbar". A "bar" can be drawn in bitmap-mode or even char-mode depending how many colors you want it to have.. but a "rasterbar" is then probably a bar not drawn by graphics, but created with a raster effect, raster-code, code timed to the blitting raster (damn who asked me to elaborate.. it only gets more blurry). |
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Flex
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 107 |
Wise words from HCL. |
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ws
Registered: Apr 2012
Posts: 248 |
*** This thread is now under observation from the high council of AMIGAAAH for heresy against all things AMIGAAAH on grounds of gross praisings for the inferior Attarieh. Proceed with caution! *** |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 668 |
Who cares about L'amiga |
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Trurl
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 61 |
Agree with HCL. MobyGames dates Seafox and Choplifter being released September 1983, but probably there were earlier such simple raster effects already?
The reason for mentioning Seafox is that it was the first time I ever saw the border having more than one color, it surely had a wow-factor at the time :) |
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encore
Registered: Aug 2010
Posts: 66 |
Just something I thought of because of this discussion.
The first couple of ATARI 2600 Activision games in 1983 started using their rainbow logo (very rasterbar-ish). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Activision_games:_1980%E2..
Oink! might have been the first one with it -  |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 127 |
For some reason I'd like to only define these kind of raster effects as rasterbars :) They are somehow very common on the C64. But yeah ymmv heh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6CQltBRKJU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwtE68S3968
https://youtu.be/LpG9gqPtNLo?t=6 |
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ws
Registered: Apr 2012
Posts: 248 |
NECROPOST! :-D [Thunder and Lightning intensifies]
Below is a recent video which might be very interesting to understand the dimensions of how large the Amiga cracking-scene phenomenon may/could have been at which point. It sort of matches my wild guess from a while ago.
"Retro Ahoy - Nobody Knows How Many Amigas Commodore Sold"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXCWYKSjHnI |
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HBH.ZTH
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 11 |
We should stick to C64 raster, not other systems. I know ATARI is tempting as it used a lot of these effects to show their many colours. But we're C64 freaks, yes?
As for C64 Sirius Software had some early games with stable colour cycled rasterbars inside letters or screen: "Snake Byte" and "Turmoil" and "Wayout". Think they are from 1983. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4694 |
Quote: We should stick to C64 raster, not other systems. I know ATARI is tempting as it used a lot of these effects to show their many colours. But we're C64 freaks, yes?
As for C64 Sirius Software had some early games with stable colour cycled rasterbars inside letters or screen: "Snake Byte" and "Turmoil" and "Wayout". Think they are from 1983.
We should, but the initial question was to debunk the claim that Amiga was first. Which it was not, of course. |
