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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
Adding screenshots for interlaced pictures - the proper way!
1) load picture in vice.
2) set maximum emulation speed to 10%
3) take 2 different screenshots
4) ???
5) profit!
the result is somehting like this:
( sure, it's not perfect, but at least it doesn't fool people because there are 2 blended images )
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http://zomgwtfbbq.info |
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assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
if blending adjacent frames makes a picture look better than it actually is then this makes a picture look horribly bad. i can count 5 fps in your example. |
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
Quote: if blending adjacent frames makes a picture look better than it actually is then this makes a picture look horribly bad. i can count 5 fps in your example.
yes, but people can still watch in an emu. people often judge pictures by just checking a screenshot, which is not the way it should be done, as a picture looks fucking awesome, while in reality it flickers like hell.
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http://zomgwtfbbq.info |
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gregg
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 56 |
Several browsers, like Firefox, limit the minimum frame delay, that's why the above animation won't look right for many people.
At least it's better (read: less deceiving) than just blending the two frames together. |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
Quote: yes, but people can still watch in an emu. people often judge pictures by just checking a screenshot, which is not the way it should be done, as a picture looks fucking awesome, while in reality it flickers like hell.
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http://zomgwtfbbq.info
In reality (eg on a C64 going into a TV) they don't flicker like hell, that's reserved for viewing them in a web browser as an animated GIF :)
I also tried the same with Flash once, it still looked crap. |
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Sorex
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 43 |
I did some testing with that ages ago aswell, Flash came out quite decent but it all depends on the picture ofcoz
http://sorex.is-a-geek.com//temp/interlacing.html |
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assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
the examples of Sorex are much closer to be acceptable |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3054 |
Animated interlaced gif gives really mediocre results. But that Sorex's flash thingy is quite decent. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
1. watch it on real shit.
2. blended images are closer than even sorex's stuff, which is nice but still misses the pal artefacts&blur&exact 50fps. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3054 |
/me agrees with Oswaldbogár. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 899 |
Quote: 1. watch it on real shit.
2. blended images are closer than even sorex's stuff, which is nice but still misses the pal artefacts&blur&exact 50fps.
But you could add pal artefacts & blurryness to each separate frame.
I actually like it :) (well, not that i like interlace at all very much..) |
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gregg
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 56 |
I like Sorex' flash thingie, but I don't like flash. ;)
Now if it would only be possible to export images out of Vice with PAL emulation applied to them... |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 948 |
Knoeki, that looks like they cut the budget on animation frames, like the usual cheap Manga crap. But if you want to add such screenshot for your own releases, sure. |
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
as said, it was just an idea. I must say in flash it looks much better.
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http://zomgwtfbbq.info |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
Knoeki's animated gif flashes more than Sorex' flash-thingy. :) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Oh noes. Please don't make another of those ultra-boring threads about screenshots and flickering and stuff.
1st rule: you do not complain about the flickering as long you're emulating it.
2nd rule: you DO NOT complain about the flickering as long you're emulating it.
3rd rule: you use a god damn Commodore 64 and forget about emulation and screenshots
kthnxbye
:)
PS for Knoeki: that gif anim is SCHEISSE! |
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assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
Jailbird its not emulators fault,its the LCD/CRT monitor displaying at a frame rate other than 50FPS that fucks it up:) the emulated flicker is the same,connect your PC to a PAL TV via TV out on your gfx card and you wont be able to tell the difference. other than that i agree |
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gregg
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 56 |
It would work A LOT better if todays LCD screens would actually support higher refresh rates, 75 Hz and up. A real pity that almost none do. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074 |
It'd be even better if they all supported 50 Hz, or even 50.12...
A blended shot is much better than trying to emulate C64 interlace with animgifs or flash crap. It'll never look right on a VGA or LCD monitor, as they are physically different from an old 15 kHz monitor, and you don't get a stable 50.12 Hz animation.
If you want to visualize the flicker, the closest you can get is a 60/40 blend of the two frames, but it takes several minutes to create a screenshot like that.
It still doesn't look very close to the real thing, and it never will. So stop bitching about screenshots and look at the releases on a real C64.
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
For me, the only proper way of adding screenshots of interlaced pictures is to grab the two frames and blend them 50%/50%.
This results in a wonderfully coloured picture that is easy on the eyes.
Interlacing is a method, not a goal.
So when possible, revert to the static blended picture.
And get proper software to do it. |
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Sorex
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 43 |
there's no reason to become rude on this topic.
more than a decade ago I was the first who posted IFLI pictures in 136 colored images on my old site.
(routine ate funpaint2/Gunpaint & RAW picture data)
why?
emulators couldn't even deal with those special modes at that time (time of C64S & Power64 or something), so people who had interest into c64 gfx compo's couldn't see what they wanted when they didn't own a real machine.
the merged one is the best but doesn't really represent how good or bad it flickers on a real one when it isn't dithered to prevent flickering (the source picture that is).
ofcoz it's better to see them on a real machine but not everyone has that option or time to transfer it all.
so I/we just came up with options to bypass those problems.
If people didn't care about such options then there wouldn't be any emulators either which would be a great loss in c64(/and other) interest for sure. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Or just avoid interlace modes at all costs. they suck.
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
I think it's irrelevant how well the picture on CSDb resembles the real thing in terms of flickering.
If you want 100% resemblance, you shouldn't even be grabbing shots from an emulator in the first place.
An emulator is the best looking result you can get in terms of playing C64 on a PC/Mac.
A 50/50 blend picture is the best looking result you can get of an interlaced picture.
Both are not 'like the real thing'.
Quote:there's no reason to become rude on this topic. Who was rude?
Besides... we are sceners, we are rude. ;-) |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
wont take long and vice et al. will have the 2-frames-at-50%-blend option for screemdumps and then shortly after also for running vice.
Then it will be too late.
Its only due to the fact that vice became so "good" so fast that only few releases run in vice than wont run on real thing. I dont like interlace and I dont like it being used and I dont like many things :)
People will always see what they wanna see. Since I cant even decide if knoekis crap-flicker is the appropiate way or a fake picture of blended frames, I think it should be up to the self-determined scener to judge (and history shows how vaulable a sceners judgement is (see e.g. voting system :)
So do whatever you like and I will like or not like what is done. I think no simple rule applies here. As so often. Funnyly the neither black nor white issue applies to interlaced pictures in quite an extreme :) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Guys, guys, guys...
The topic you're looking for is this one. Re-read it, please. The matter was discussed once (or twice). Yeah, just keep bringing up this issue every second year but here's a better option, you'll like it: use that friggin search function first which was placed on an easily noticeable place for a reason. Dear Mr. Knoeki, does the following picture ring a bell by any chance? :)
Quoting Knoeki
Generally I agree that interlace modes should be avoided if possible but some of them could look very nice on the real thing. If done right, an interlaced picture won't flicker like a stroboscope and your eyes won't pop out like in Total Recall after watching an IFLI for several minutes. Look, I've spent countless days pixelling interlaced shite and my eyesight is still on place. Aesthetically, some might like the flickering and the blur produced by it, others might not. It's a simple matter of taste.
And about the screenshots, I should rephrase the rules (hai, assiduous :).
You do not complain about or praise C64 graphics as long you're watching them on PC (especially as screenshots).
There are multiple examples of graphics that look much better/worse on a vanilla C64. I hate repeating myself, but for fucking's sake, boot up your machines which this scene is based on and try to limit the whining about screenshots to the minimum. Once and for all, they're god damn extras on a production page, and should remain as an induction to the real deal, and not something your opinion, vote and comment is based on. |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 227 |
I'm embarrassed. I do ensure my innocence in adding non-interlacing, non-blended screendumps not only for myself but several persons in the scene
(for example Sebaloz).
I must be punished for trying to fool people about the standard of the C64 gfx capacities :D.
Oh, and I agree what Jailbird said:
"You do not complain about or praise C64 graphics as long you're watching them on PC (especially as screenshots)."
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