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Forums > CSDb Discussions > Intro Compos - and Size Coding
2024-06-23 09:32
Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 698
Intro Compos - and Size Coding

I wanted to bring this topic up again.. as I know it was discussed before between TheRyk, Krill, Jammer, GPZ and others.

Size-limited intro compos. WHY are they restricted to limited RAM?

An intro compo, for me, shouldn’t be about pretending that C64 has limited memory. Intros should really just be appropriately sized “hey, we cracked this, we’re awesome, hello to our friends!” things to impress.

A 1k intro would normally be linked to a <4k game.. so if it chose to expand to 48k, but only added 1k or less to the file size, that would be fine. In the real world. The person playing the cracked game really doesn’t care less what the intro’s doing. It’s just an intro.

The argument that “we’re turning an intro compo into a compressed demo compo” seems backward. That’s not it at all. By adding the extra restrictions, you’re actually saying it’s not an intro compo at all - it’s now a size-coding compo.

My 2c.

Ps. Recent discussion on this was here: https://csdb.dk/forums/?roomid=12&topicid=158496&showallposts=1
 
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2024-06-23 17:06
tlr

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1793
Quoting Raistlin
But… my point was that if a 1k intro is linked to a 1k game, why not use the other 62k? Outside of compos, proper intros could definitely do that - why wouldn’t they if they allowed them to be somehow cooler?

At runtime, sure. But not in binary size, because loading time and space it takes up on a disk.

Quoting Raistlin
But I guess intro compos aren’t just about intros.. the added restriction makes it more like a size coding compo with restrictions. Which I can of course understand the interest in.

You could argue that the whole c64 (and retro computing) scene in general is all about restrictions already. Nothing wrong with a few more to encourage creativity.
2024-06-23 17:28
Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 3003
Quoting Raistlin
But… my point was that if a 1k intro is linked to a 1k game, why not use the other 62k? [...] I’m talking about the intro generating code and/or data to somehow improve the intro’s effect.
This boils down to the same "pls provide payload to link with" argument.

Question would be how to properly formalise that for a compo. Either you make the payload so big as to implicitly enforce a memory footprint restriction on the intro, or the payload is smaller and then... require the intro to be no more than a fourth of the payload's size? On disk? After decrunch? Or require crunched intro+payload not to exceed 125% of payload size? Etc. =)
2024-06-23 17:35
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11443
Now someone please make a tool that generates a binary containing random uncompressable bitsalad, plus a piece of code that checksums it for validation, so i don't have to do it :)
2024-06-23 17:41
tlr

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1793
Quote: Now someone please make a tool that generates a binary containing random uncompressable bitsalad, plus a piece of code that checksums it for validation, so i don't have to do it :)

cgen of cbmtools 0.9 does this, but currently only with compressible data. I could add such an option if there is public demand.
2024-06-23 18:32
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11443
Do it! (checker code should probably be position independent)
2024-06-24 10:07
ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1415
So are we talking ~56KiB of random bits to pretend we're doing a trad style "running the intro after decrunch but before unpack," or?
2024-06-24 13:56
Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 698
Just to reiterate my original point..

In the OLD days, the really old days, all that we cared about was the size of the file. If a game was 4k, and we linked a 1k intro, so maybe we increased a 16 block game to 17 or 18 blocks, nobody could care less if the cool intro that we slapped on the front used all the spare memory or it just stuck to bank 0. Only the block size mattered, did the game work, were there cool trainers and how good is the intro?
2024-06-24 16:35
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11443
You are conveniently ignoring that crack intros were universal things used with dozens, or even hundreds, of different releases :)
2024-06-24 17:19
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5110
I can tell you that with raster plaster I shat bricks to make it fit into working 16k memory. you cant even unroll raster code.
2024-06-24 17:39
Jetboy

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 340
I don't understand where is the problem?
One can write the intro in whatever way one wants. If one organizes intro compo, one can set whatever rules one want.
I do not see a problem if one intro compo limits executable size, and the other compo limits memory usage as long as the rules are set up upfront and clear.
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