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2004-02-03 08:59

Hero

Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 90

Top Groups

I think its a shame to see ILLUSION down on #44 place. But i guess its the users on csdb who makes the charts! and we got only 20 votes!!

Hero/ILLUSION

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2004-02-03 19:04

Dishy

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 241

Quote: Well Mike, atleast this is actually my frankly opinion about Nato. I´m not saying that Nato was able to cope with Legend, Ikari,Dominators, Papillons etc. on only the cracking part, but I certainly do think, that if you look at Nato as an overall group - both as a demogroup(B.U.D.S. with Maduplec)and crackinggroup with Maduplec/Dominators and Megasnail, I actually think they did very well.

Dishy - keep the c64 alive - Dishy

As cracking group, I was too fast to write this. I would have written " with Macro Nit/DOM, and Megasnail"..

Dishy - keep the c64 alive - Dishy

2004-02-03 19:18

Dishy

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 241

Quote: Nato : well i remember when i was a swapper, i think i dude called Tiger in Nato, was sending me disks almost everyday. guess i have some disks who belongs to him. He was a good swapper.

Harry

Tiger was one of my friend back then. He also works with computers too day. The guys who were calling in the states in 1989-90,91 would probably remember him..

But Harry, you can give me the disks at The Party 2004, you pméd me about, haha

What ever - I liked Nato, but it´s 12-13 years ago Tiger and Maduplec left for Crest, so who cares now anyway!

Dishy - keep the c64 alive - Dishy

2004-02-03 20:05

Mason

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 461

@Hero: About the Illusion stuff. The good thing were Illusion did some great stuff, but problem is its not common on the net. You can only find a limited number of Illusion cracks. I know when I try to find the stuff it can be hard to find more cracks.

About Nato : I cant remember how much about if the Nato crack worked or not, but personally I like some of Megasnails work back then. Also think it was funny with the a/n trainers - ay and nay

2004-02-03 21:58

Dishy

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 241

Quote: @Hero: About the Illusion stuff. The good thing were Illusion did some great stuff, but problem is its not common on the net. You can only find a limited number of Illusion cracks. I know when I try to find the stuff it can be hard to find more cracks.

About Nato : I cant remember how much about if the Nato crack worked or not, but personally I like some of Megasnails work back then. Also think it was funny with the a/n trainers - ay and nay

@Mason: Talking about Ulrik(Tiger), didn´t you get in touch with him again some years ago? If so, what´s he doing today? Hmmm Mason, about Nato. I also remember you mentioned Crossbow/Crest and Maduplec/NATO/Crest as your all-time favourite coders, and NATO, Noise and Crest as your all-time favourite demogroups in an interview for Domination some time ago. So guess I´m not the only one who actually think, that NATO was an awesom overall group with some really talented members.

Dishy - keep the c64 alive - Dishy

2004-02-04 00:40

Westbam
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 192

Well sure, I for myself am basically building up my opinion on the cracking side as I am qualfied to judge this I guess. I ain´t the person to discuss things on the demos matter as I was simply too far away from this scene. Imagine, I coded three different games on 64 and never finished them as I simply did not have the patience to complete them, how in heaven could I dare to judge the work of these raw dudes coding the 64 to it´s limits ??? But cracks from Nato or Zenith on the other hand never gave me a taste of being impressed. Doubtless both of these groups should be remembered as a huge contribution to the C64 but I do not consider them among the top cracking groups at all...

However, tell me if I´m wrong but I think I remember that Nato bought BUDS into the group who was a fully made up demo group on it´s own, wasn´t it ?

In my eyes there was nothing that could be compared to the constant high standard release rush groups like Ikari(+Talent of course), Illusion, Dominators or Legend posessed. That does not mean that the others weren´t worth to be mentioned, where would the scene have gone to without pioneers like ESI for example? I just think that this was the creme de la creme besides many many other top groups. It could also been just a lucky point in time that these groups were kicking when high standarts in cracking were necessary to get on the peak considering levelcrunching (IFFL for example), mega training and fixing bugs inside original games. Also it has to be considered that this was the time when the ntsc fixing skills of people like Horizon, Pudwerx, X-Factor, Grim Reaper or Booze were a huge part of your chance on getting a first release.

I mean come on, americans sure will remember the times before these dudes were around in anger with all these semi fixed flickering and constantly crashing euro wares...

As I said, my primary aim was making the game a world wide first release, I didn´t really do much mail scene or demo scene so the bbs scene is my first choice to build up my opinion on and these guys were the ones that knew how to play this game perfect...

2004-02-04 00:45

Westbam
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 192

Quote: well Zenith had their top. And Steve was a nice dude.
So i think Zenith was a good group. And Mike you had your top when you called yourself Narc!hehe

Harry

Hehe sorry Harry, I supplied much more games under my next handle than I did on this handle. The difference was that I did not care about being mentioned on everything anymore. It was nice to see yourself being mentioned on a first release but after my break in end 1990 / early 1991 I had paid in full and my life had changed during this break a lot I think....

But hey, those were the days and glory was for the few...

Man, imagine for how many years we know each other now back since mail trading in 1986 or something and we have never met... THAT is sad!

2004-02-04 08:50

midfit
Account closed

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 143

@Westbam: Your post about "chances to get the first release.." remind me on the late situation in the Commodore 64 scene.

Games got rare and everybody was seeking for some small bugs which could justify a 100% release. Kudo's to the boys in Avantgarde for inventing the "Ah! I have found some flickering rasterbug on the right side of my HDTV" fixing. That made the first release and every group agreed with that sorry situation. How poor and sad, because actually that wasn't all about quality, but more about hunting for points.

I guess that was the signal that set the end for me (Concerning C64). My Nonbelievers should say "How wise, you couldn't do shitjack anyway"... I know it is frustrating to see my tread marks and failing big time :)

Best regards,

-midfit!

2004-02-04 08:54

Hero

Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 90

Mike : yeah its 20 years in 2006. Gee.. am getting old. Am hoping to go to the x-2004 in Holland. what about you? perhaps i will be in Holland 2-3 days before the party starts. Would have been fun to see ya there.

Harry

2004-02-04 12:21

Dishy

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 241

Westbam, ok I see what you mean.

You wrote:

"However, tell me if I´m wrong but I think I remember that Nato bought BUDS into the group who was a fully made up demo group on it´s own, wasn´t it ?"

I do not remember this, but according to a scrolltext in the NATO-demo Dodger all done by Maduplec, "B.U.D.S. was more like a trademark for maduplec's best work, than an actual group."

According to Dodger which for sure is a Nato-production I actually think, that B.U.D.S. should never have been created in heer as an individual/separate group, because as Maduplec wrote - it´s not an actual group, but a trademark..... Which again means, that the votes in this case for B.U.D.S should have been entitled/added to Nato instead of BUDS, coz BUDS isn´t an actual group anyway.

Hmm - just some ideas and thoughts. But it´s a long time ago now, and it´s impossible to make "The C64 Scene Database" 100% correct, but yes atleast it is very impressing, that so many old sceners actually care about the c64scene(-history) after all those years, and pretty nice to see, that some old sceners still stick together - guess that´s what you call C64-solidarity:-)

Dishy - keep the c64 alive - Dishy

2004-02-04 15:58

psychobilly/x-RSI
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 9

To my view it does not make sense to have "all time" charts anyway.

Each time had its leading groups - without a meaningful basis to compare those without considering the context and the time these rankings are pointless.
The quality and amount of games released, the technological advances of crackers and software firms, the number and size of cracking groups are important variables which over time varied too much that such comparisons could be made objective. All what you get is a subjective and non-representative view of a few people who have no full information (nobody presumably could have that over time) on these critical variables and bother to vote at all.

Just an example I see on the right.. was Jazzcat the best diskmag editor of all times?? How about Antichrist/OMG or Skater/Censor? Or Gotcha? Can anybody compare them objective? On what basis? Or could it be that each of these guys had ruled the diskmag scene for a certain amount of time? Did Eaglesoft ever competed with Legend or Illusion?

Just my perspective, keep on voting... ;)

Stefan aka PB/x-RSI

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