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Forums > CSDb Discussions > ** Link removed by CSDb staff due to copyright. Please do not provide download links to this **
2005-04-12 10:15
Slartibartfast
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230		 ** Link removed by CSDb staff due to copyright. Please do not provide download links to this **

Well, there has been a few of these notices today, on certain Protovision releases that have been cracked and released by some people on CSDb.

Cracking has always been a large part of the scene, arguably the biggest and also what has ultimately ensured the scene to exist today.

If it weren't for cracking, piracy if you will, many games simply wouldn't be available on the web today. The C64dtv wouldn't have much of a lineup, all the games on it were cracks from the scene.

Now this issue has come to CSDb again, over old releases of Protovision games. Download links removed, to files which are definitely a part of the scene.

I can understand the policy on this, it's a way to protect CSDb against legal action. Other sites, for instance GB64, have tackled this by not hosting the files and just providing links to them.

But CSDb won't allow even that, if someone has an issue with their copyrighted work being available, the links will be removed. Even links provided by the user in their comment to the entry, will be censored and removed.

There is nothing regarding this policy in the CSDb FAQ, yet there is this disclaimer:

"Who's responsible for this?
We cannot take responsibility for the content of this database as all information is submitted by users."

So, that says straight out that CSDb is not responsible for the content.

It can be said that this is a way to protect CSDb in future, but from whom exactly? Can anyone honestly see Chronosoft or Protovision sueing anyone? Or if this is a measure to protect CSDb, could it go further and remove all cracks from the site?

On the other hand, CSDb are just trying to protect themselves, from Protovision apparently. Should we take the old debate over piracy directly to Protovision? As sceners themselves, they should know better than to be taking on this issue against sceners. Don't we all know by now that the people who would download these cracks, are not the same people that would buy it? That some of the people that get the game for free may even consider buying it at a later point?

One of the Protovision founders was a cracker himself, other members have been crackers, swappers or undoubtedly recipients of pirated software themselves.

This seemed to start with Macgyver altering a release of a PTV game here yesterday. A member of Protovision and also a CSDb admin. He was a swapper in the past.

Is this censorship really necessary? Do Protovision really think they would lose sales of these games, does CSDb really think there is any threat of legalities from an admin of this site?

This is an issue that strikes deep with many in the scene, and this site is an essential part of the scene today.

Surely there must be a better way to deal with this.

So let's discuss it here rather than in comments on these censored releases ;)
 
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2005-04-13 09:37
Scout

Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570		 Quote:

About MacGyver let me first state that he is NOT admin. He have what we call a 'trusted' status, which a few other users also have.


Maybe you trust him, but I guess it's clear now the submitters (eg. the sceners that made CSDB worthwhile) don't trust him anymore. Esspecially because of the immature way he reacts.
I vote for public hang ...err... demoting him to a normal CSDB user.

R.
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl
2005-04-13 09:40
Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044		 I second that vote. MacGyver cannot be trusted. Especially when he is targetting groups only (an example of this can be why he removed the Ice Guys SCS&TRC version but not the Singular version).

Perff, please make him as having normal user access and find someone more worthy for that role. He has abused his rights and trust in this position.


2005-04-13 09:41
hollowman

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474		 Quote:

8. Nice seeing some guys showing their real faces, next to StreeTuff e.g. Hollowman and Fungus


And what is it that i have done here that is so terrible? I have pointed out:
1. that you've supplied a certain original of a game made by sceners, which could be bought at that time.

2. That you've abused your trusted priveligies here

your first responses were just infantile, then you've excused the original supplying with that the game was bugged and that you've payed for it. can other people use the same argument about protovision games and get away with it?
and you still havent responded to the second accusation.

now do tell me, what is it that i dont know shit about?
2005-04-13 09:41
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11352		 "Nobody gets hurt if you crack jumpman-jr, but a lot of work gets dishonoured by cracking games from the last (at least half) professional c64-software company."

only (atleast halfway) decent games get copied. notice how noone is really upset about richards game, which isnt linked either :) cant see how that dishonours anyone.

"Instead of beeing happy that real software (including boxes, manual etc) keeps the C64 alive, some of you guys insult the protovision people."

this has only little to do with protovision. it has to do with an individual who is misusing his admin rights.

and ppl who want the packaging and manual will buy it, regardless of the crack. that argument has been going since the 80s and still stands.

"I dont want to judge about nowaday swappers, but even in the good old times it was a little bit harder to get cracked software, so nobody should complain if he has to search longer then just enter csdb."

that you have to explain....how was it hard to get your hands on cracked software unless your iq was below of sliced bread and you wasnt able to copy a damned floppy?



2005-04-13 09:42
Twoflower

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434		 I kind of like Hollowmans face. :-)

No, seriously, it'd be interesting to see what these discussions will result in. Some parts of it have been filled with mindless slagging and crap, while some points have been well made. Eventhough, this is an important discussion, I still wouldn't be too surprised if nothing all happened as a result.

But let's hold the hope high. Some suggestions:

* No commercial games belong here, unless they are cracked. If they need to be promoted, the should be promoted elsewhere. The scene, as I see it, consists of 1) the demoscene and 2) the crackingscene. That's about it. I wouldn't like to see Ocean, Hewson, etc, beeing listed here, eventhough they have been. Having PTV listed as sceners, and as a group - no problem. Just no commercial games. Once again I come to think of Iopop promoting his "executive access" to girls.c64.org (for only $19.99) on CSDb. Scene for me is something which is free and public access, commercial games isn't.

* For the sake of future security, why not ban the entire uploading of cracks here? Not the releases, not the links, but the actual uploading. Wouldn't it be safer, for CSDb's sake, to host all cracks elsewhere, like f.ex on the FTP's?

* Why not make them votes transparent so we can skip that part of the discussion? Either you take stand for what you like or not, or you don't vote at all. And I still can't remember why the votes haven't been made transparent yet.
2005-04-13 09:51
Perff
Administrator

Posts: 1677		 Quoting Jazzcat
This is such a huge database you cannot be obligated to check links. The only reason these 3 links have been removed is because your little POLICEMAN with GOD-STATUS has removed them. How come Ice Guys can still be downloaded yet the SCS&TRC version is removed?


Surely I can't check all information, which is the reason we have the disclaimer as I said. Now MacGyver found these links and in some way he has the right to remove these links because of his relation to ptv. Normally people finding such wrong info would mail me, and I'll look at it, but his "GOD-STATUS" as you call it (which is actually far from the admin-status I have) gives him access to remove this himself.
Exactly why MacGyver is one of the few with this access is a completly other discussion, but lets just say that in the early days he showed a big interest in maintaining CSDb, and as far as I'm conserned he did a quite good job at it.
It might be silly that you can dl the other version from CSDb, but noone have complained about that link, and unless someone does - how silly it might seem - it stays there.

not much of an answer i guess, but actually there is not much to say. I'll instead repeat myself:
If anyone rightfully want's any information from CSDb removed, it will be removed.

PS. I know that the docs have never been quite good, so I'll see to it that they will be updated on this specific field.
2005-04-13 10:00
Scout

Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570		 Quote:

Now MacGyver found these links and in some way he has the right to remove these links because of his relation to ptv


BINGO!
And that's just one of the things this thread is all about!
He just can't be an CSDb Admin if he doesn't know which hat to wear (eg. the Warez hat or the PTV hat)

R.

---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl
2005-04-13 10:07
Seven

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202		 "1. Stop comparing cracking on the C64 today with cracking on the C64 15 years ago - this is nonsense."

It may be less work because nowadays' "companies" don't put any effort into protection, but it's illegal now and it was illegal back then.

"2. Stop calling Protovision commercial, cause as I pointed out before, we only cover our costs (not even!) and forward the bigger amount to the creator of the product."

commercial, adj.: occupied with or engaged in commerce or work intended for commerce

Profit doesn't necessarily enter into the definition of the word.

3. Hockey Mania, as well as Ice Guys and Bomb Mania, are (C)opyright Protovision and so no one but Protovision (and the game's authors, if they are not a member of PTV) have a right to decide if and how they are going to be offered for free download.

Mega Starforce was and is copyrighted aswell, but that didn't keep you and your brother from fucking around with it.

"3. In contrast to most other C64 games, these games are still sold today. Get that!"

I'm pretty sure there's still some stock of old C64 originals someone would love to sell. For example, the GO64 Shop has quite a few originals to sell. Why don't you make yourself useful and delete links to those games aswell, and while you're at it, search the web for more shops and delete any and every link to games you find still available for buying. And include eBay please, I'd hate to not get proper money for my auctions because the game has a download link on CSDb.

"5. We try to keep our games compatible to other devices like those from CMD. Copy protections hamper the games working on these drives."

Too bad for you, isn't it?



Anyways... to Perff:
If you acknowledge download links being illegal (and we all know they are), you need to add a paragraph to your "what's allowed" list that you will delete illegal content on sight, and then need to do so, which pretty much means every single game-related download link. Also, users who add them probably need to be banned to be on the safe side.

Is that what you want?

So here's a few entries with illegal links, some even with files hosted on YOUR server, I hereby propose for removal to get you started:

Ice Guys
Oil Imperium [german]
The Train
Last Ninja 3 +
Centric +4
Mega Starforce Remix
Bburago Rally 103% + SCPU Ramdisk
Boom +4M +SCPU Ramdisk
2005-04-13 10:11
Perff
Administrator

Posts: 1677		 Quote: Quote:

Now MacGyver found these links and in some way he has the right to remove these links because of his relation to ptv


BINGO!
And that's just one of the things this thread is all about!
He just can't be an CSDb Admin if he doesn't know which hat to wear (eg. the Warez hat or the PTV hat)

R.

---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl

This will not make much difference. If he didn't have that 'trusted' status he would have mailed me instead, and I would have removed them. The result would have been the same.
2005-04-13 10:23
Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044		 Perff: How he can keep one link and not the other is just plain ridiculous and you know this. Please be a little bit more realistic here and don't have your head up MacGyver's asshole so much. He is abusing his power and you don't have the courage to admit this or do something about it. Fucking pathetic.
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