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2017-12-11 17:01

Bacchus

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 156

Recall releases

# Background

I messed up. We released a version of Tink's Subtraction that was bugged. The trainer poked maximum values in the registries on every load. But the max value was different depending on the level chosen to play at. I did a quick fix and released the new one where this aspect was perfected.

Then it showed that it also loaded one of the levels differently if you selected another difficulty level, so I needed to make a new fix and then also another version.

# What conflicting interests to take into account?

I think it's fair view that if you release shit and are sloppy in your quality assurance, it's only right if there is a level of embarrassment involved. At least to some extent.

It's also a fair view that preservers want all versions. At least to some extent.

But it is also worth taking into account that we also don't want people to pick up the wrong version of a game and spread it.

# Suggestions:

> Having said the above, I don't see the value in bugged versions risking to be spread over the final ones.

I want to be able to recall a release. I know this collides with the "preserve all" and the that I'm not properly dragged through the mud for sloppy work, but the bugged one is out of circulation.

I can edit comments - why not as a bare minimum give me the right to adjust (including removal) a release for the same duration as editing comments?

> If this is not possible, then I would want the option to issue a "replacement". I need to upload a new version which has a clear indicator that there was a previous - bugged version - that got replaced. Mud dragging and no spreading of the bugged one. Only counter argument is the access for the handful of people who see the benefit in that, intermediate, version.

> At least delete the download link for broken and replaced releases, and give the three people globally interested in preserving such bugged and replaced releases the option to download them separately.

... 53 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2017-12-11 20:47

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384

first you are saying this isnt a BBS, now you say it should be?

indeed, principles. csdb collects all releases. its that simple.

2017-12-11 20:55

Seven

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202

CSDb is NOT the scene. CSDb is no substitute for the BBS. If you want your first release, and what other reason is there for a rushed and buggy release, you should've uploaded to the BBS, deleted your bugged version there, uploaded the other version, deleted that too cause it was bugged as well, and maybe not uploaded anything to CSDb at all.

Since bugged version can be marked as such, a user can clearly differentiate. You're trying to redefine the rules that have been in place for quite some time because YOU messed up. If you don't want users to run into bugged versions, test your stuff. Ian did your work for you. Twice.

Don't get me wrong, I personally don't understand the need for X similar releases either, but those are the rules, deal with it.

We all know CSDb has issues, there are long lists of features missing, but there's also a 10+ year old codebase and a lot of people who claim they know how things are supposed to be done, but when it comes to actual commitment they're gone faster than you can point out a bug in a Failright release.

2017-12-11 21:43

Bacchus

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 156

Quote: CSDb is NOT the scene. CSDb is no substitute for the BBS. If you want your first release, and what other reason is there for a rushed and buggy release, you should've uploaded to the BBS, deleted your bugged version there, uploaded the other version, deleted that too cause it was bugged as well, and maybe not uploaded anything to CSDb at all.

Since bugged version can be marked as such, a user can clearly differentiate. You're trying to redefine the rules that have been in place for quite some time because YOU messed up. If you don't want users to run into bugged versions, test your stuff. Ian did your work for you. Twice.

Don't get me wrong, I personally don't understand the need for X similar releases either, but those are the rules, deal with it.

We all know CSDb has issues, there are long lists of features missing, but there's also a 10+ year old codebase and a lot of people who claim they know how things are supposed to be done, but when it comes to actual commitment they're gone faster than you can point out a bug in a Failright release.

Principles, ok? This discussion *springs* from that release - this is not *about* that release.

That release was a fuck up - I deal with that. No need to question that. It's a separate discussion. Follow Hedning's thread for that.

THIS discussion is how CSDB should handle such cases (and others) and how CSDB is continuously striving to serve the scene, in the best way possible.

First: Rules can change - if enough people with voting power agree. It's not like CSDB cannot change. It can. If the relevant people want it to. And it's implemented. So YES, I am trying to change a principle on CSDB. I indeed do. Being a layer by education I know that better than most; the rules we have now is what we have now.

We can agree on a change here, and if noone feels like implementing it, then it will still be the same. But let's target the discussion on what would be the best for the scene. In what way will CSDB best serve the scene? I don't deal with rules that are stupid by accepting them. I try to influence to change! This is the purpose of the discussion.

Secondly: CSDB CAN be a substitute for a BBS if it wants. For many people it already is. But Skynet is not yet self-aware. The forums are active which is a clear substitute for BBSes. I personally rather see CSDB as the place to officially release on. ZipCoding and uploading to a few selected BBS:es is IMHO pointless when CSDB could easily have that role. You say I should't upload to CSDB at all. Would the scene benefit from that?

I don't have any insight in how CSDB is run, but that will not prevent me from having opinions.

As per my suggestion; one release is one release, including the failed attempts, being presented as one. If fulfils the objective of logging all versions, it shames the group releasing it for it sloppy QA, it doesn't confuse the visitors with a plethora of version that have no interlinking (minimising the risk of the users getting hold of the wrong version). So all I am suggesting is the presentation layer!

2017-12-11 22:22

Pitcher

Registered: Aug 2006
Posts: 61

To be honest, I agree on some parts, The biggest I also don't understand is the need for zipping a disk into 4 parts, then spending the best part of an hour uploading those to 3 different bbs's just to time and date stamp a release. We have multiple users on csdb at the same time so no arguments on lines could or where tied up on purpose, like we've seen in some recent threads ?

Be a lot easier First upload here wins?

2017-12-11 22:26

hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4731

Bacchus:

1. Moderators run CSDb and rules can change, that is correct. We have heard your arguments. Thank you. You have the right to your opinions.

2. CSDb was a first release site for quite a long time, and had another approach. This inflicted, however, with the original idea with this site: being THE source of information regarding the C64 Scene. We had to take part in scene politics, and had rules on what first releases should be here or not etc etc. Quality ranks and so on. This made CSDb incomplete, so the rules changed. Fighting and drama between groups took a lot of work and energy and together with CBA's The Digital Dungeon FTP (which was a first release site too) CSDb stopped being part of scene drama and first release fights, and the first release scene moved to the BBS world completely, which made things a lot more easier for everyone. Boards was always part of the first release world though, Antidote has been one of the counted boards for very long, and the 100% move to three boards was also due to more boards emerging on the scene. There has been no complains over this move until you became active again. You do not like calling boards in 2017, and you do not like how the CSDb rules are written. And that is completely ok opinions, but regarding the boards, you have to talk to the guys running the first release lists (and all major groups have agreed on what boards to be first on).

2017-12-11 22:29

hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4731

Quote: To be honest, I agree on some parts, The biggest I also don't understand is the need for zipping a disk into 4 parts, then spending the best part of an hour uploading those to 3 different bbs's just to time and date stamp a release. We have multiple users on csdb at the same time so no arguments on lines could or where tied up on purpose, like we've seen in some recent threads ?

Be a lot easier First upload here wins?

If you want to play the game, follow the rules. You guys need to talk to the other players. All other major groups agreed on the current way of doing it. And: It has nothing to do with CSDb. Talk to the major first release groups. CSDb is only mirroring what they do and release, and do not want to take part in scene politics.

2017-12-11 22:53

Pitcher

Registered: Aug 2006
Posts: 61

Im sure given the choice, that most people would rather download something from here in seconds and run it in an emulator or slap it on a memory card and pop it in a real c64, than take 10-15 mins downloading and to then start reconstructing a disk out of it.

If you had the option, to download from either source, which one makes more sense ? Especially when alot of releases end up on every source at the same sort of time.

I know what I would choose.

I'll quite happily follow rules, as I wasn't around when they where written, but I'm sure something somewhere could be updated a little.

And then we've also seen arguments here recently of blaming people tying lines up, hogging them while they get an intro linked game together, to get a first release, all that would be gone too ?

2017-12-11 23:08

hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4731

Pitcher: All releases end up here as well, so no problems there. The boards are there to show who were first. If people want to download here, let them do that. If they want to enjoy the boards, let them. We are all playing with old computers here, why rule out the BBS world, when you guys are cracking games from 1985 for the C64? Enjoy the little magic that is still with the C64 scene, and that includes the boards.

If people hog lines they will be kicked out from the boards. Simple.

2017-12-11 23:22

Bacchus

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 156

Several things at the same time, but it's me bringing them up so noone else to blame.

- The main topic is still the presentation layer; aggregating multiple versions of the same release with minor differences is IMSO enhancing the usability of the site. There is no usability advantage of splitting them. And this can be accommodated without deleting entries that the archivers want and proper bad karma for sloppy QA still lands on the cracker and group.

I haven't heard any relevant argument against that. The closest was seven saying he agreed it was stupid but it is like it is.

- The other topic, how to count and the rules around that is a separate discussion, where I totally agree with Pitcher of course, but still refrain from adding any comments. When ready to dive into that fully, then let's start a separate thread.

2017-12-11 23:30

hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4731

<Post edited by hedning on 12/12-2017 00:32>

The relevant argument is of course that every release you do ends up here sooner or later as this is a database that aim to be as complete as possible. If you dont want your crack archived, don't upload it anywhere, or spread it. Pretty simple. If you do various versions, all versions ends up here too, so make sure you only upload stuff you know is 100% if you only want one version archived.

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