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2013-12-30 09:27

Bitbreaker

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 504

boobsploitation

So i never understood the fuzz about choosing boobs as a motif. Nude bodies have always been part of art. Also boobs are a thankful motif, as they keep one motivated to continue and finish a picture. Actually i adore and worship the female body. For me, nothing does feel wrong about that. But i somehow feel like there's a lot of mental masturbation going on. So feel free to bring your arguments against boobs forward. Maybe some nice drama will develop from that!
And yes, of course i'll continue drawing boobs, don't bother :-)

... 251 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2014-01-08 12:19

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578

Quote: hollowman's cross stitching pic is the coolest thing since open borders, priceless. :)

Yeah, fuck me, it even has anti-aliasing :D :D

2014-01-08 12:38

Radiant

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639

This thread contains some points here and there made by various different people, but those points aside it's generally making the mistake of first asking a structural question and then answering it without using even the most basic semblances of structuralist analysis, instead reducing everything down to individual example mixed with ad hominem.

Now, if you're genuinely interested in why someone would consider sexualization of the female body to be particularly problematic I can suggest reading a bit at for example http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/the-faqs/faq-roundup/. If you're not and/or think you already have it figured out I can suggest that you don't; that's fine too.

2014-01-08 13:43

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3050

Tried to check the site. As the link contained an abbreviation "faq", I expected brief and clean info. After opening about 10 links in new tab and checking (and closing) every one of them because of TL;DR, I have recalled one sexist joke http://imgur.com/AgkYv

And no I'm not telling this to stir argument. I'm just fed up with this (new) feature of internet. Where result of debate doesn't depend on truth and facts (whatever they are) but on the endurance of the participants. Therefore I have decided to not to read this thread until it's closed.

bbl

2014-01-08 23:22

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359

Quote:

But I DO honestly hope that another person will have a good day when I say it.

are you sure? on every single occasion? i somehow doubt it :) even you dont like some people down to the point that you dont feel like wishing them anything. and i am sure there also exist some people that you DO like down to the point that you would rather not tell them certain things. life is complicated, you know =)
Quote:

From now on, I'll definitely pay more attention to this, but really don't know of cases when I'd be dishonest with others (except the occasional "Hey, you look great today", but that's rare anyway).

see, you are already coming up with exceptions - those occasions are exactly what its all about. (another commonly overlooked thing is when someone asks you "how are you?" - you can't resort to a meaningless "fine!" - because thats almost never the (entire) truth)
there are some interesting studies on this topic around, worth reading (unfortunately i cant recommend anything, as those i did read were all german)

2014-01-09 00:54

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578

Quoting Groepaz

are you sure? on every single occasion? i somehow doubt it :)

Yep, why not? I simply don't say it if I don't mean it. On a daily basis, I say that to four or five persons (my SO, my roommates, the clerk in the store who is an older woman and we speak a lot anyway if she isn't busy, and to the clerks in the bakery who I also know a bit better, as we usually have small chitchats while I wait in the line). I smile a lot and genuinely wish they'll have a good day, it's not even a habitual greeting.

About answering to "how are you?"s, I only say fine if I'm fine. If I'm not, my answer is "not too good, but don't mind me, I'll sort it out". If a person seems honestly interested, or is close to me, I might tell more or ask for help in case I need it.

Quoting Groepaz

see, you are already coming up with exceptions - those occasions are exactly what its all about.

Sure, but it's not that I lie all the time, or that I can't live even a day without lying. And I tend to say "you look great today" to people who radiate out energy and seem alive and happy. Is that even a lie?

I'm trying to come up with situations where I'd have to straight out lie to someone but I can't. I don't go out too much as I work from home, my colleagues are great, my boss for 12 years is simply amazing (I wouldn't even call him a boss as he's so on level with me), I don't have to communicate with our clients (otherwise I'd probably have to lie or just be silent a lot, indeed - actually my boss stopped taking me to meetings with clients because I often blabbed about things I didn't supposed to), my roommates are bright, tidy and great friends (one of them is also my brother, and if something is bothering me at home I could tell them), with my close friends we're even too honest with each other sometimes, I don't meet my crazy relatives often, I don't flirt with women, and my SO notices even the tiniest lie anyway (she's very good at that shit). I live a kind of life where I simply don't really have to lie.

That said, if I'd have to speak up every thought of mine which occurs to me, I probably wouldn't have a single person beside me :)

2014-01-09 01:12

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359

Quote:

Sure, but it's not that I lie all the time, or that I can't live even a day without lying. And I tend to say "you look great today" to people who radiate out energy and seem alive and happy. Is that even a lie?

when it comes to this experiment - yes. think autistic, only facts exist, not feelings.
Quote:

I live a kind of life where I simply don't really have to lie.

well, maybe not conciously :) according to some related studies, everyone "lies" a couple of times every day.

that said, it sounds like you secured yourself from a lot of these situations in a similar way i did - i work at home and dont have any customer contact for a good reason too, when i worked at "conrad" years ago i got into plenty trouble because of telling customers the truth =P

2014-01-09 07:44

Bitbreaker

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 504

Okay, so the link brought up by radiantx makes it obvious to me that the "objectification" issue is stuck somewhere between thesis and theory, or better to say it is just hot air. Means that in future i give even less fuck on those objections when i draw whatsoever i like. Thanks to radiantx for making things clear for me :-)

2014-01-09 09:50

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578

Quote: Okay, so the link brought up by radiantx makes it obvious to me that the "objectification" issue is stuck somewhere between thesis and theory, or better to say it is just hot air. Means that in future i give even less fuck on those objections when i draw whatsoever i like. Thanks to radiantx for making things clear for me :-)

Objectification theory suggests both direct and indirect consequences of objectification to women. Indirect consequences include self consciousness in terms that a woman is consistently checking or rearranging her clothes or appearance to ensure that she is presentable. This self-consciousness may also result in a lack of motivation because it distracts from what would be the motivating focus. More direct consequences are related to sexual victimization. Rape and sexual harassment are examples of this. Doob (2012) states that sexual harassment is one of the challenges faced by women in workplace. This may constitute sexual jokes or comments, most of which are degrading. Research indicates that objectification theory is valuable to understanding how repeated visual images in the media are socialized and translated into mental health problems, including psychological consequences on the individual and societal level. These include increased self-consciousness, increased body anxiety, heightened mental health threats (depression, anorexia nervosa, bulimia, and sexual dysfunction), and increased body shame. Therefore, the theory has been used to explore an array of dependent variables including disordered eating, mental health, depression, motor performance, body image, idealized body type, stereotype formation, sexual perception and sexual typing. Body shame is a byproduct of the concept of an idealized body type adopted by most Western cultures that depicts a thin, model-type figure. Thus, women will engage in actions meant to change their body such as dieting, exercise, eating disorders, cosmetic surgery, etc. Effects of objectification theory are identified on both the individual and societal levels.

^ Does this look hot air to you? Is it just theory that one of my best friends who also happens to be a female and works as a secretary in a workplace where the majority of the employees are male, often complains about disgusting sexist remarks directed to females in the office, which they have to accept very lightly, otherwise they'd jeopardize their jobs (or, men tell them that they're prude). What about the outlandish female body images that are steadily projected towards us as examples to follow/like? My SO, who I think of as an intelligent, down to earth woman - is obsessed about having a breast augmentation, even when I reassure her that she's perfectly fine to me and I honestly like her body the way it is. She's still constantly self-conscious about her look, she compares herself to popular women I don't even find attractive or interesting. She's on an unhealthy diet right now, whilst I don't think she needs it or does her any good. Once again: she's far from being stupid or naive, but I simply can't explain to her that as long as she's well-groomed and healthy, that's all what I need from her considering her look. It's hard to ensure someone about the exact opposite what's all around her, what she learned and willingly welcomed since early childhood. And I see/experience the same with my female friends, without a single exception - all of them are bitter and sad about their bodies. I will have to be a very attentive and agile parent to raise our daughter in a way that she becomes a woman who will accept even her alleged negative physical traits and be comfortable in her body. These are all direct consequences of the sexual objectification that's around us. I still don't think that it's a problem on the C64 scene itself, but let's just don't pretend that the current situation of women in our culture is so fucking good.

2014-01-09 10:07

Bitbreaker

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 504

What? I force your wife into breast surgery by my pics? The idealized body image hits both. Now go observe the animals, how they act to draw attention on the opposite gender. Everyone wants to be attractive. However all this gets very unimportant when you found the right partner and have children. Lack of time and social contacts due to that helps :-P

2014-01-09 10:30

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578

Quote: What? I force your wife into breast surgery by my pics? The idealized body image hits both. Now go observe the animals, how they act to draw attention on the opposite gender. Everyone wants to be attractive. However all this gets very unimportant when you found the right partner and have children. Lack of time and social contacts due to that helps :-P

Not you personally of course, but you're definitely an active part of a group that objectifies and encourages objectification of women.

And we're not animals. Lo' and behold: we have conscience, we feel love, strong empathy, we have free will, but also the painful emotion of shame. And our purpose in life isn't just reproduction, you know.

The problem with physical attractiveness today: it would have to be about being healthy and feeling comfortable in your own body rather than basically forcing yourself to look like clichés from popular culture whilst destroying yourself mentally and physically (as otherwise you might feel degraded and less recognized).

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