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stunt
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 48 |
Sid ADSR problem / hardrestart
Hey guys,
I more or less understand the hardrestart thing,
but can anyone explain to me what the exact problem
with the ADSR is? So explain what the effect is when i dont
use hard restart.
Lots of thx.
The audioarts sidproject (hardware and software pimping of c64)s:
http://www.audioarts.nl/getNews.php?ID=19 |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Good HR is probably quite essential to many. Still they don't need to talk about it in (almost) every thread. Hmm? |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Maybe not. But it's always a *by the way*. :)))
And as far I can remember this is a thread about HARDRESTART.
Cadaver. Feel free to write a nice FAQ about Hardrestart. There are a lot of people which don't know what it is.
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Yes, you for example. HR = ADSR manipulation at gateoff, not "sexy note start", which is the meaning you seem to have adopted. (the latter does not necessarily require the former) |
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stunt
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 48 |
Quote: I can't wait to hear your first sidtune. Musically it's not a problem for you to create something cool I guess, but only by experimenting you can find out the true nature of SID, not by collecting data. And it's an ongoing debate, which sid is best.
But if you desperately seek info, I think you should contact the ones trying to emulate the sid. Those are the laboratory people.
Cadaver said:
"I get the feeling that if someone prepares to utilize the SID too scientifically, he will only be disappointed. There are no lookuptables in players to auto-correct filter output for each sid revision ;)"
I respect your point of view: there's guys that like to work by intuition. If that's your strategy that gives you the results you're after, i'll recommend you continu to use the strategy. If my strategy is to be precise and scientic, and i assume there's more guys over here that feel comfortable using this scientical approach. I assume we all respect eachoterhs individual strategies and approaches that people have on this forum.
Furthermore I think it's a great suggestion to create such lookuptables, so let's create them if nobody has ever attempted to do this yet (which would suprise me).
"And yeah, there is no need to get too agitated, it's not like people are deliberately withholding information so as to pass on the suffering of experimentation, it's just that most simply go by their feeling."
Ok. When i compose I always go by feeling. Now that i'm creating my own hardware/software sid synth, I want to optimise and use all technical/scientifical data available to the max, about both software and hardware aspects.
Another thing that I'd like to investigate is the influence that capacitors have on performance of sid. I'll probably replace capacitors to optimise my pimped c64's. I'm going to create ubersid.
I'll check reSID btw. Thx for the tip.
Anyhow, my question still stands: please elaborate and give me details about values to avoid, values that always provoke hangups etc. If it's different for different players, provide info on that or simply describe the symptoms that the adsrbug has in the different players that you are accustomed to work with.
@ the guy that asked for my sidmusic: as this topic is about building a sid synth, and i dont see the relevance of my skills as a composer, it might be offtopic to bring it up. But let's just say that i make my living as a composer for the media, and since business is going quite well I now some fotunately have some time and money left to finally develop my c64. Because i love sid sound and want to use it for my music productions. Furthermore i'd love to focus more on making music for games and demo's, because composing for commercials and tv is so boring sometimes.
I would like to develop stuff that people will enjoy to use, so please elaborate, I'm thankful for all your suggestions and comments. Let's create cool tools. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Ah, the whole time I thought these questions were in preparation to create the most amazing music for Battlestar Galactica :)
Anyway, my input would be to go for maximum configurability. For hardrestart, give options to write any ADSR value and perform gateon/gateoff some time before the note. The more accuracy you can get to the timing (more than standard 20ms PAL frame?), the better.
An example:
60 ms before: ADSR 0000 and gateoff
20 ms before: ADSR to instrument values and gateon with no waveform
0 ms: start the note
Note that because you need to know there's a note coming so that you can do gateoff/HR before it, this introduces a latency to live-playing. But if you can stomach it, with this kind of long HR, particularly if the timing stays accurate, there are like no instrument ADSR values to avoid. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Yes, you for example. HR = ADSR manipulation at gateoff, not "sexy note start", which is the meaning you seem to have adopted. (the latter does not necessarily require the former)
Just to disgrace you: I know that *Hardrestart* is basically an ADSR manipulation. :P
For me and a lot other sane composers only the "sexy note start" counts, and nothing else.
It's simple: If a certain player doesn't allow accurate = sexy note start, it will be declared as BAD hardrestart (if it has HR).
Of course, it's absolutely no problem to make nifty instruments with hardrestart that isn't up-to-date, but actually it's not the same (I think you understand that)
Maybe YOU can explain us why your *own* player has such a good hardrestart?
Just for fun? Hmmm?
Just tell us who requested to you to implement that up-to-date hardrestart.
Maybe composers? Hmmm?
... and then reconsider my attitude to hardrestart :)
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stunt
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 48 |
ok since hardly any on topic replies here in this thread (pity, am i so unclear?) , you may also explain to me what is a 'sexy note start' and how it relates to hardrestart. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
@Nata: it was originally requested by Jammer, in very vague way. Done mainly as a learning exercise, to see if I was able to reproduce what for example JCH playroutines produced. And the silent frame was also advantageous for rastertime.
But the short & even note start is only one of many possibilities, and once you know how it's done, it sort of loses its mystery? The main point is: many people find it useful, only you feel the need to get all fanatical about it.
@Stuntgitarist: when you manipulate ADSR in the way the example couple of posts above shows you, and always write ADSR first, waveform afterwards, it performs just that. You can also use for example ADSR 0F00 or F800 as the fixed value. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Aha!
And value F800 ? Where is the difference? |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
The SID uses the same internal counter for all of attack, decay and release. The counter itself can never be reset, so it's to cause a different kind of delay, I guess. |
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