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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
a plea from an old schooler
please dont use modified PAL emulating screenshots for pictures on this site.
people may want to use this site to download unmodified c64 art in gif or png format with pure pixel definition.
if they want to see the stuff in highly debatable pal emulation mode people can download the PRG files and view them in that mode on an emulator.
Thanks
Steve |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1727 |
Quote: So we disagree on what people should be shown as a screenshot, despite an unfiltered one being the exact pixels an artist dropped onto a bitmap and PAL emulation being someone's attempt to emulate the signal path of those pixels after they leave that bitmap... Like has been said, an option to have filter on/off would be ideal.
Pete
Since implementing PAL emulation in PHP isn't too much fun we could do this quick fix: Allow both a filtered and an unfiltered screen shot.
Require the screen shot uploader to flag which.
Only one screenshot is required, but two allowed.
Note also that most screenshots include the screen border to some degree. Having no border isn't very common.
The site might not always have black background you know... :) |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Quote: Since implementing PAL emulation in PHP isn't too much fun we could do this quick fix: Allow both a filtered and an unfiltered screen shot.
Require the screen shot uploader to flag which.
Only one screenshot is required, but two allowed.
Note also that most screenshots include the screen border to some degree. Having no border isn't very common.
The site might not always have black background you know... :)
That sounds like a nice compromise, maybe mouseover to switch the two but show the chosen type as standard :)
Pete |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11148 |
ok, we can do that - come back if you have a significant number of users behind you that agree on which palette to use for this =P
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Quote: ok, we can do that - come back if you have a significant number of users behind you that agree on which palette to use for this =P
Well as there's going to be the option for the uploader to decide on PAL/no PAL/both, surely they've either got some claim to the image or think they have so until someone with more claim to it comes along it's up to them ;)
Pete |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5029 |
Quote: So we disagree on what people should be shown as a screenshot, despite an unfiltered one being the exact pixels an artist dropped onto a bitmap and PAL emulation being someone's attempt to emulate the signal path of those pixels after they leave that bitmap... Like has been said, an option to have filter on/off would be ideal.
Pete
the unfiltered one is not how it looked like on the artist's display. I still remember the horror of seeing the 'unfiltered' pixels of the c64s emulator for the first time. It was anything but not how a c64 looked to my knowledge. So far everyone was happy with the PAL filtered stuff around here, its not like it happened against the crowds will. |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1727 |
BTW: Don't forget that there are different sets of luminances for the colors.
The really old ~1982 c64 has a 6569R1 video chip which is different.
Some early sceners had that, which might add to the palette confusion. |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Quote: the unfiltered one is not how it looked like on the artist's display. I still remember the horror of seeing the 'unfiltered' pixels of the c64s emulator for the first time. It was anything but not how a c64 looked to my knowledge. So far everyone was happy with the PAL filtered stuff around here, its not like it happened against the crowds will.
First, that's not the point of what's being discussed ;)
Second, the filtered stuff is nothing like how Ste, myself and quite a few other people I know saw it. I think Ste would've noticed while he was drawing that magical new colours were appearing and while some stuff did attempt to use PAL blending the demos we saw with it in didn't actually produce the effect they had in mind.
If other people with different TVs saw different then that's the whole point we're getting at, you cant foist your memory of something on everyone else despite them disagreeing and still tell them they're wrong. That's why I'm happy that there's the possibility of a compromise.
Pete |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Quote: BTW: Don't forget that there are different sets of luminances for the colors.
The really old ~1982 c64 has a 6569R1 video chip which is different.
Some early sceners had that, which might add to the palette confusion.
Yeah, different palettes and even the PAL emulation good/bad isn't really a problem. If someone uploads an image using Pepto palette and I think Wanja is closer, I'll download it and change it to keep on my HDD, presuming there's one to download that's not been blurred to all hell ;)
Some people seem to be mistaking us wanting a "clean" image for us saying PAL emulation is TOTALLY wrong or unnecessary. I don't think it's correct yet but I do think to get the full effect of a C64 connected to a TV something along those lines IS needed, just not in this instance.
Pete |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5029 |
Quote: First, that's not the point of what's being discussed ;)
Second, the filtered stuff is nothing like how Ste, myself and quite a few other people I know saw it. I think Ste would've noticed while he was drawing that magical new colours were appearing and while some stuff did attempt to use PAL blending the demos we saw with it in didn't actually produce the effect they had in mind.
If other people with different TVs saw different then that's the whole point we're getting at, you cant foist your memory of something on everyone else despite them disagreeing and still tell them they're wrong. That's why I'm happy that there's the possibility of a compromise.
Pete
The alternate line color mixing is the reality. Try it on your setup. I've seen it myself it was a shocking discovery. Blurred smeared pixels were also there. In the 80s you had all these artefacts on a CRT. Its not a matter of opinion. You can literally count hires pixels in a chessboard pattern on todays monitors, on the old CRTs you will get most of the time new colors out of this.
Its not a matter of different TVs either, its how PAL signal works.
Wish I had my phone's usb cable with me, I could show all these effects to you right away. |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
Quote: the unfiltered one is not how it looked like on the artist's display. I still remember the horror of seeing the 'unfiltered' pixels of the c64s emulator for the first time. It was anything but not how a c64 looked to my knowledge. So far everyone was happy with the PAL filtered stuff around here, its not like it happened against the crowds will.
Well i'm not happy with it Oswald :)
and bearing in mind i used to draw on the original i would would find it extremely difficult to draw in the current favoured palettes and effects being as how they make about 1/3 of the palette almost the same colours.
we didnt use the Force you know. we could actually tell the colours apart.
Steve |
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