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Eyeth
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 98 |
Emu-Fuxx0r
Hello, CSDb denizens-
I would like to bring up this subject, in a constructive fashion, however!
I recently found out that certain demo authors and groups are now using Krill's code to disable their demo offerings under c64 or 128 emulators.
I find this practive to be very shortsighted and in fact, I would vote very negatively on such behavior in CSDb or on any related votesheet.
Why go to all of this trouble in emulator detection and disabling technology. IMHO, the time *wasted* on such efforts are far better spent on NTSC fixing it so that we North American sceners can view your demo releases. (And on the real machines, I might add!) Or just add a NTSC-fixer to your demo crews and share full source code for a proper NTSC fix.
As of now, I am unable, still, to view certain demos due to no NTSC-fix and an emulator is out of the question as they are emufuxx0red! Talk about severely limiting your audience.
An c64 emulator is a brilliant piece of software engineering. The original c64 was truly inspired piece of software/hardware engineering. Are they not equal in deserving consideration and respect? The c64 audience uses both kinds, the emulation and the real thing and all of them share the common c64 computing experience.
Also, emulators are perfect for one thing; they can easily take screenshots of demo screens, even if there's interlacing effects and sprites multiplexed all over. I plan on writing newsletter articles covering the demo scene and try to bring more awareness to the North American scene regarding fine demo offerings and screenshots are invaluable.
I know that demo coders, graphicians, musicians, etc. all work together in creating inspired art on our Commodore 64's. Let's not restrict the audience any necessarily further by implementing emulator detection and shutdown. Allow any Commdore (real or emulated) user worldwide to share in the demo experience in 2002 and onwards. :)
Enjoy.
-Todd Elliott
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Emu-fuxx0r is, to my mind, a very sad waste of time - there are only two products that i'm aware of that won't execute correctly on CCS64; "Demus Interruptus" and HCL's remix of the Starion crack intro (both work in VICE and the latest version even gets around the emu locking on "Demus").
Okay, so i understand the "C64 pride" aspect and, up until recently, i would have been right behind it - but things change and, with CCS and VICE "coming of age" to the point where they're 99.x% accurate, i honestly can't see why anybody would want to lose potential viewers.
Since the bulk of interest in the C64 these days on the 'net is based around the popularity of the emulators, we're cutting our collective throats if we don't allow for emu-based viewers now.
It's possible to code demos, draw graphics and compose music in an emu or even over Windows with tools like C64Asm, Congo (yeah, i know it sucks but it's an example) or GoatTracker. This means that there is potential for *new* sceners to appear who have never used a real machine but can contribute to the scene in a positive way.
Yes, i'd prefer that these potential sceners used the real deal, but sometimes that isn't possible; if we don't want the scene to shrivel up and die, we need new blood.
One aside though, to Eyeth: considering your demos to date are mostly SuperCPU only, don't you think it's a little pot/kettle to take a poke at people who are limiting their audience...? =-) |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Krill said it was about the challenge and expect V3. Don't blame Krill, blame those who use it like HMMurdock and his Jeroen 'Red' Kimmel collection. VICE 1.8 can get around version 1 and 2 with some use of the VICE monitor and freeze/break points.
Some demos cannot be NTSC fixed for many reasons. Sometimes it's just easier to get PAL setup.
As for the Starion intro remake, VICE's $D016 bugs screw it up and make HCL seem like he can't code stand raster bars, which really are stable. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Erm, sorry, but VICE 1.8 runs the Starion Intro remake just fine (except for some minor glitches in the lower raster bar underneath the scrolltext). It's CCS64 who f&%$s up the intro really badly. |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2924 |
Unfortunately this isn't 1990 and there aren't 15 fixers sitting around waiting for releases. Even then, demos weren't fixed on a large scale - one here and one there. Personal knowledge here, I was in quite a few NTSC importing groups. A few NTSC demo groups tried their hands at fixing - the two most successful were Arson and Style.
I haven't run into a single problem running any of the PAL demos I'd want to see on emulators. I also don't grab everything that comes out - like I did years ago - and view it.
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Warbaby
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 60 |
I think it's crazy to spend your time on preventing programs to run on emulators.
In fact, I would feel bad if my own programs didn't work well on CCS64 and VICE.
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: I think it's crazy to spend your time on preventing programs to run on emulators.
In fact, I would feel bad if my own programs didn't work well on CCS64 and VICE.
Personally, i'd be surprised if my stuff *didn't* work on an emu, there's very little of note going on in the video tricks department (my all-time favourite routine of mine is the bitmap tech-tech in "Contraflow", which is an incredibly tight piece of speed-code and should execute on any emu that does cycle emulation).
As i said, there are exceptions that still aren't emulated fully but that's probably more because the techniques used are new variations rather than anything else - given time they'll be covered by CCS too.
Now, one thing i'd like to find a bit of time for is to sit down and play with C64S, i reckon there's a few quirks in there that don't happen on a real C64 that i could make some *really* nice routines out of... =-) |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
So? Krill created it for the challenge. I don't think he has anything against emulators. Email etc. those who actually use the protections. So fat all protections can be bypassed so there is no worry. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Interesting read, this is. Thanks for quoting me, Stryyker. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: Interesting read, this is. Thanks for quoting me, Stryyker.
Hey Krill, any chance of an emu-un-fuxx0r - it'd be a challenge! =-)
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
Maybe it is a bad idea to make a production not work when being run on emulators (because of the thinx you guys have said).
But we can all agree that emulators sucks :), so some kind of emu-protection is cool. Instead of making the production crash, it would be cool if it displayed a nag-screen (like in some of the old shareware programs) when being run on an emulator, saying f.e. "emulators suck - this will look/sound lame on an emulator - run it on a real C64. (press space to start)" or something.
Just a suggestion... |
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