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2024-07-23 13:59

mankeli

Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 146

Message for 4agentE

Thanks a lot for derailing the thread. I was just writing you a message that you should start behaving. You can be as autistic you want (your own words) but please stop acting like this is a matter of life and death.

I would have been happy to continue the discussion about the actual real timelines of things instead of that bullshit.

Also CountZero, how about a warning first?

... 20 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2024-07-23 18:03

tlr

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1790

Yeah, mid 1987 is more like the emergence of the second “generation” demo/intro coders.

2024-07-23 18:44

mankeli

Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 146

Quote: Yeah, mid 1987 is more like the emergence of the second “generation” demo/intro coders.

Interesting! Can you elaborate on that? Who were the first "generation" in your view?

2024-07-23 18:57

tlr

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1790

Quote: Interesting! Can you elaborate on that? Who were the first "generation" in your view?

From the top of my head, groups/people like Omega Man/TCS, Ratt/Crowther, Flash/FCG, 1001 Crew, Thunderbolt Cracking Crew, YIP/Pure-Byte, Sodan/FC, The Judges perhaps. Many of those mentioned started dropping off around that time, some switched to Amiga, some turned to game coding. In contrast a lot of new groups and individuals started releasing stuff, probably inspired taking this up by earlier stuff.

I apologize if I missed someone here.

2024-07-23 19:06

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

Look in the greetings of that Amiga demo :)

2024-07-23 20:06

deetsay

Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 43

Quoting mankeli

I hope the mods can rename the thread.

"Message for 4gentE"

Quoting chatGPZ

It was kind of like the early internet - it was designed so users can create their own "pages" (like websites) where they can publish their own content. And many used it to post samples of their work (aka demos) in order to get some attention from potential publishers/contractors

That's actually very cool! Is that stuff generally in csdb (or.. internet archive?) now or has it been lost?

And, sorry, but publishing work (aka demos) to get the attention of publishers... I know some of that was going on also in the mail swapping scene, But. Aren't scene demos more like self-publishing to gain notoriety for your pseudonymous group? (just like crack intros)

Quoting Krill

Okay, July 1987, a tad late.

Can you elaborate on how it's "literally perfectly showing the demo scene springing from the cracking scene"?

Literally literally. Spreadpoint was into cracking (and, I assume, spreading). A part of that scene, if you will. But they also made demos. Which doesn't "prove" anything in isolation, but I'm claiming that this was actually very typical, even earlier, and in fact how the demo scene was born.

While also growing organically from other corners of the computer universe - not that everyone was crackers, or "from that scene". It was just significant enough that the culture remained almost the same, which is why it shouldn't really be too debatable to make the rough generalization that the demo scene sprang from the cracking scene.

Quoting Krill

As for Piccolo Mouso, i'm pretty sure that a few more demos existed in the early days, many of them lost. And i'm rather sure that an argument based on quantities rather than qualities almost inevitably leads to the old conclusion i'm doubting.

Quantity isn't everything, but of course it matters when you're claiming there was a whole parallel culture brewing. And sure, even a single demo could have started the demo scene, but if that was the case, I don't think we would have been so fast to lose it and forget what it was.

Quoting tlr

Omega Man/TCS, Ratt/Crowther, Flash/FCG, 1001 Crew, Thunderbolt Cracking Crew, YIP/Pure-Byte, Sodan/FC, The Judges

6/8 have also cracks on their CSDB resume (also the founder of The Judges had one, but I let that slide, it was 40 years ago after all). I also nominate FCS/FIG and Kasper/(B).

2024-07-23 20:55

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

Quoting deetsay

Spreadpoint was into cracking (and, I assume, spreading). A part of that scene, if you will. But they also made demos. Which doesn't "prove" anything in isolation, but I'm claiming that this was actually very typical, even earlier, and in fact how the demo scene was born.

While also growing organically from other corners of the computer universe - not that everyone was crackers, or "from that scene". It was just significant enough that the culture remained almost the same, which is why it shouldn't really be too debatable to make the rough generalization that the demo scene sprang from the cracking scene.

I am with you until the last comma in this quote. Because if everybody did a bit of everything, or maybe just one and not the other, but still within the same "cosmos", there is no chronological order as implied by "the demo scene sprang from the cracking scene".

Quoting Krill

Quantity isn't everything, but of course it matters when you're claiming there was a whole parallel culture brewing.

I never claimed anything about a parallel culture, only a common ancestry - and that by this magical point in time when there was a distinct "cracking scene", there was also a distinct "demo scene" (and vice versa).

2024-07-23 22:50

Count Zero

Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1932

Quoting Krill

As for Piccolo Mouso, i'm pretty sure that a few more demos existed in the early days, many of them lost. And i'm rather sure that an argument based on quantities rather than qualities almost inevitably leads to the old conclusion i'm doubting.

DUDES. I didn't create Piccolo to read about it nowadays - we were young and motivated.

$SCENE didnt manage to create database or additions here of which effect was first done whereever so far. WHY even TRY to discuss it on such a generic level?

$SCENE (for us) is a bunch of people doing whatever they like, link, code/compose/compost and spread - how can all of you people cry for diversity nowadays but also THINK of splitting $SCENE parts?

Next: graphicians and musicians who dont want their "art" being used on cracking intro!

So, go on - nothing to see or even talk about here...

/cz (who had enough of this on the RSS feed today!)

2024-07-23 23:01

Fungus

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 686

Pretty sure the "scenes" if you can even call them that, had crossover, were both going on in parallel and you forget the the third "scene" which was game programming. Now there is evidence that's pretty easy to nail down with the third one as things were released commercially, and demonstrating your talent to get a job at a software house is likely where the word demo came from. Or perhaps demos of games you made, to get the lucrative deal with mastertronic or ocean in the UK.

I wish TMR was here... as a user of compunet he could fill in some gaps, but sadly he is not.

People were making pictures with doodle and stuff very early on, I remember local boards that were quite old (running on a PET) that had downloads of such things. So there was user groups and stuff too where people were learning about the c64 and some of course began to code and make art.

Everything was probably happening all at once.

Intros are more remembered because wares spread far and wide a lot more than passive demos, because people bought a c64 to play games or do work of some sort and not to make demos, so I think it's probably correct to think demo scene came out of games, both coding scene and cracking scene. It was not some entirely different entity that is pure and just as much as Krill would like that to be the case.

2024-07-23 23:13

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

Quoting Fungus

It was not some entirely different entity that is pure and just as much as Krill would like that to be the case.

Really, i never said such a thing. How can i make it any clearer that my main gripe is the "cracks first, then demos" (on a scene level, not individually) thing here, and not some weirdo alt-history "demos were delivered to us by the gods" thing? :)

2024-07-23 23:22

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094

"demos were delivered to us by the gods"

good title for a demo :)

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