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angelo
Registered: Jul 2024
Posts: 13 |
Howdy
Hi there. It's my first post here, so lemme introduce myself. I'm angelo, or æn.d͡ʒə.loʊ, or unj, a founder of KSKPD, the group behind polish unesco application.
I'm in process of researching some early-computing stuff, including an idea planted by @Krill and @bitfat, that the default narrative of "In the beginning it was a cracker scene, that developed into demoscene later because $REASONS" might be worth challenging.
I might be asking in various sub-forums questions around data on this site, but while I used to be a part of demoscene as a coder (1995+), I also owned PC exclusively since my first computer in like 1990. I skipped 8bit phase completely, so please bare with me, if the questions sound obvious or straight-up outrageously naive :) |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote:Quoting ws
And i believe all the major first demo-effects were discovered by crackers.
Quoting Krill
That makes them coders as well, doesn't it?
You described it perfectly. Cracker becomes democoder. I think this happened a lot. That's why "demoscene emanates from crackerscene" seems obvious. As I mentioned in another forum, cracking scene was a rare source of machine language knowledge, essential for demomaking. Plus, I KNOW there were a lot of non-cracker coder rookies that got inspired by intros and either joined existing crackergroups or coded intros for their own make-believe groups. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Quoting 4gentECracker becomes democoder. I think this happened a lot. That's why "demoscene emanates from crackerscene" seems obvious. More like "demoscene emanates from common shared proto-scene", imho.
In the days without that clear distinction, when everybody dabbled a bit in everything, there was no notion of separate scenes.
But maybe we're really only disagreeing about semantic issues, in which case clear definitions and distinctions should be agreed on. |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 452 |
I do not think that views of a person or persons that started or joined much later matter at all. People who actually did stuff in the 80's are still alive.
No, "only" crackers did not become demo coders. That is absurd. Very few people reverse-engineered copy protections. Most people did not. Swapping was around before the copy protections. People created stuff when the hardware and software tools and books became available to them. There was demand for games, so games and cracked games were swapped a lot. That became the distribution method. People added their own productions and "I made this" stuff to the "swapping stream". Some were interested in how effects were done and tried to do the same or better. Groups have people who have very different interests, so whatever general idea of "cracking or demoscene" there is just an artificial label and does not apply to every individual that was involved back then. Even if there is a "cracking group" in the name, it is just a name. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Regarding those papers (or even books) on the subject, i have learned that the more people write about it - the little they actually know. The same logic can be applied to threads like this (And whoever references something written by Evrim Sen first wins). |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote:No, "only" crackers did not become demo coders. That is absurd.
Of course. Who and where said the “yes” that prompted you to begin your sentence with “No”!?
Quote:People who actually did stuff in the 80's are still alive.
Exactly. The question is, does big enough percentage of these people remember it oppositely to what became considered as “common knowledge” (based on Wiki and a few research papers and books)? Is this percentage big enough to warrant a major rework of currently standing demoscene beginning myth, as suggested by Krill? |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335 |
Quoting JetboySo you are one responsible for that unesco crap.
Scene did not need that. We were fine without you.
I'm pissed that people like you are stepping on a work of thousand enthusiasts for personal profits, writing bullshit pseudoscienentific papers, sucking government donations and setting up bullshit studies that teach nothing useful.
disrespect
Dude, WTF?! xD I guess it hasn't gotten to you yet how much of a nobilitation this fact actually is. You may be appalled by all the red tape and archeology around it but knowing that what we do is actually important for widely understood culture and not only a funny hobby for nolife outcasts is imho pretty uplifting. |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 452 |
It is very common that common knowledge is incorrect. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote:It is very common that common knowledge is incorrect.
I can say “true” to that. I may also add that it’s very common that common knowledge is correct.
My point is, it (common knowledge) cannot be upturned by half dozen personal opinions. Unless they are THE ONLY opinions that is… |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 452 |
A philosopher was walking a path in front of him. The terrain was difficult, forest was thick, and he dodged tree roots and rocks, saw the flowers and birds and beings hidden in the trees and felt the rain and wind. Exhausted he got to the other side, and there was a monk who asked: "Where do you come from? The true path comes from there, pointing to a paved road. There is no path were you came from." Philosopher answered: "There is now." |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: Quote:It is very common that common knowledge is incorrect.
I can say “true” to that. I may also add that it’s very common that common knowledge is correct.
My point is, it (common knowledge) cannot be upturned by half dozen personal opinions. Unless they are THE ONLY opinions that is…
there is no factual proofm and you yourself cant present fractual proofs for your views.
what you label common knowledge is not proven.
cracking games needs much less effort than doing something creative, also cracking comes naturally ppl just wanting games for feee, so its natural cracking happened earlier.
demos needs much more effort and investment, so it came later.
however if A happens earlier in time than B that doesnt mean that B originates from A. |
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